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cam choice for the 461 poncho

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  • #16
    The Formula is a WS6 car, stiff springs, big sway bars, fast steering box, they don't wallow in corners like crapmaros do. All I did to get it in the 12s is stuff the 455 in it, remove the front sway bar, and put on sticky tires. Later I dropped from 12.30s to 11.90s by dumping the power steering, going to a manual box from a 66 ElCamino, aligning the front end, truing the rotors, and repacking the wheel bearings. It had 4.10 gears in it with 28" tall tires, which meant it was all done by 1000ft and went the last 300 ft maxed out in RPM. It was running 7.80s- 7.7s in South Carolina at an 1/8th mile track through the mufflers on BFG drag radials and driving it to the track. I put a 3.42 rear under it and it picked up to 7.40s because the 455 pulled harder and spent more time in each gear, these aren't small chevys that need lots of gear. Roughly, at that performance level, every .10 you pick up in the 1/8th is .20 to a little bit more in the quarter. So it would have picked up a lot in the quarter, especially on slicks where it used to pull 1.6 short times. That particular car is getting some attention later this year. It has the Butler 467 in it that blows off every tire I have put under it. I've done lots more to the suspension since then, but haven't spent much time tuning on it. With the 467 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGcr4Sh9lUU Same car before I painted it when it was racing in South Carolina. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbIHIy0a1FQ

    The 70 has a hydraulic roller, its the only Pontiac I have with one. The rest have flat tappets other than the 467, it has a solid roller, a big one. Use the break in lube and you should be fine with a flat cam. Even without ported heads, the 455 will run, unless you do it like a chevy, in which case you will run slower and probably break something. Mild RPM, mild gears, not a huge cam, and usually no more than 2400 stall is all you need to run 11s. Jim Hand ran mid 11s in a 4000+lb 72 wagon with a GTO front end on it. He was running a mild 455 with the 96 heads, RA IV cam, headers, and a Continental converter that flashed to about 2800. 3.55 gears, later he had ported heads and nearly got tens. I have built most of my street engines like his or his brother Floyd, who ran low 12s high 11s with a 3.07 rear, L88 converter, 96 heads, and the 068 cam in a 70 LeMans. Both of them ran stock intakes with Qjets. They were doing that in the 80s and 90s.

    Having the compression will make a difference too. Not so much on gasoline, but definitely on ethanol. You want it to shove you in the seat all the way through the quarter? This way of building them will do it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Thumpin455 View Post
      Even without ported heads, the 455 will run, unless you do it like a chevy, in which case you will run slower and probably break something. Mild RPM, mild gears, not a huge cam, and usually no more than 2400 stall is all you need .
      yep, the big pontiacs are "tuggers", you gotta load it down to make it pull.
      too much gear makes it a tow truck--lotsa grunt but you aint going anywhere...

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      • #18
        Alright so I know where im at
        400 988 block
        forged rotating assy {scat crank, rods. ross forged aluminum pistons
        62 heads {bare}
        stock intake [port or not to port?]
        longtubes
        mild built 350 turbo-want overdrive though
        2.88 (i think) open diff

        I have a guy with a 442 rear end that needs a ring gear which i have in my rear end. I could swap his internals and have posi for 450. just need to find out the gearing though
        so theres two tires spinning maybe

        i dont know what to do about heads this is probably the most controversial issue to me because i can swap a cam anytime. cam and lifters are almost always less than 300 but heads are always above 1000. What do i do with these bare 62s. pay like 1800 to port polish and install hardware or sell them for 3-400 bucks and save for the out the box aluminum heads from butler 2300$? I think they flow 300 cfm out of the box and ive been told 290 is about as high as iron d ports will go.

        cam- if jim hand can run 12s with a ram air cam so can i. I would run a ram air cam thats fine with me if this is a streetable cam. this is summit 2802 right? or at least close to it?

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        • #19
          The 2802 is the RA III cam or 744. 2801 is like the 068. The 041 is the RA IV cam, its bigger with a rougher idle. Some guys like Rhoads lifters on it, even they even still make them. I have run the 041 in 400s before, I didn't mind the idle at all. This one is basically the RA IV
          Manufacturer's Name Part Number Advertised Duration Duration @ .050 Lift With 1.5 Rocker Arms Lift With 1.65 Rocker Arms Lobe Separation Angle Intake Centerline
          Crower 60919 304/316 231/240 .470/.470 .517/.517 112

          These are the ultradyne cams I ran before.
          Ultradyne - 280/288 223/231 .463/.485 .510/.534 110 104
          Ultradyne - 288/296 231/239 .485/.507 .534/.558 108 -
          Ultradyne - 296/301 239/247 .507/.530 .558/.583 110 -

          These are the Summit cams
          Summit K2800 262/272 204/214 .420/.442 .462/..487 112 -
          Summit K2801 - 214/224 .442/.465 .487/.512 112 -
          Summit K2802 282/292 224/234 .465/.488 .512/.537 114 -


          You can get the info here. http://www.wallaceracing.com/cam-specs.htm

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          • #20
            so I found a couple interesting things while searching the interweb for cam stuff. Don't know if its true or not but supposedly the ram air 2 and the ram air 4 were the same grind. The difference being the rockers (1.5 for the ram air 2 and 1.65 for the 4) So as the questions keep piling up, I'm leaning on the ram air 4 because it sounds pretty nasty in some of the gtos I been googling. should I take advantage of the 1.65 rockers or would 1.5s be better for a street car? I was reading that the ram air 4 was one of the most radical cams to ever hit the street. For those of you that have used them. Is it too radical to cruise with? shouldn't have issues with vacuum as thumpin455 stated earlier. I like having the power but will I be able to net some mid teen mpg's on a roadtrip cruising with the ram air 4 and not getting on it at all? I plan on running the t350 and a 2.88 rear end unless I snag the 442 3.73 rear end I found on craigslist

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            • #21
              ive run the ram II, ram III, and ram IV cams in the past.
              the newer tech short LC cams made way better power,
              and had far superior driveability to me.

              the old ram cams are usually ground on 113 or 114 LC, as a crutch
              for the days long duration to make vacuum and be somewhat
              streetable.

              in my experience, i was much happier and the car was quicker
              AND easier to drive with the short duration/high lift/short LC
              type cams. plus they sound even rattier.

              those high velocity heads seem to work even better when you hold the
              door open further rather than holding it open longer...
              (thinking of the valve as a doorway, duration is how long you
              hold the door open, lift is how far you open the door, and LC
              is how quickly you open the next door inline/have both doors
              open at same time...)

              again, just my own experience, yours may differ and again
              in the end its your car/your money.

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              • #22
                Makes sense. Quick open and close results in good velocity. I checked out comps site and came across the xe284. I like the lift, it's at 240 duration .050 and valve timing is .006. Sounds nasty through the phone on some 400s but maybe a little tamer with 60 more cubes?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by cstmwgn View Post
                  I agree that you would be leaving a lot on the table going with a 268. A 292 is a bit more than I think you want for your usage BUT if it was a solid so you could use lash to hide duration then that might work. I have been running a 282 solid in my F250 for ~100K. It pulls trailers and is fun to drive when empty. Remember that the more CIs you have the more cam you need to feed the hungry beast. As always, Todd is the Pontiac guru so his advice should probably be followed closely.
                  How do you hide duration with valve lash?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by pontiacpower View Post

                    How do you hide duration with valve lash?
                    "loose" lashing means the cam turns farther before actually
                    starting to open the valves, the downside is noise and wear.
                    if you had a 400 i would say the 280 isky, for the 455 i STILL would
                    go with the 292/.505/108 isky. again, just my opinion and you
                    know what they say about that--but i promise you wont be
                    disappointed.

                    if you want milder, do the 280 in the 455. if you want nasty do the 292.
                    either way it will be liveable and driveable--and thats really important
                    in a street car. i gladly give up 25+extra hp to get better driveability
                    in my own cars. either one will sound rumpity, just that the 292 will
                    sound MORE rumpity. it will also give you more power.

                    as said before, i dont own stock in isky, and i dont have either
                    of those cams to sell you sitting on my shelf-- just letting you
                    know what worked really well for me, i couldnt have been happier.
                    ive also had good luck with lunati, but i look for isky first everytime.

                    heres a 455 in a grandprix with the 280 isky-


                    and heres a 12.02 pass by same car, same cam...
                    First track day with the new Isky 280 Mega cam. This run was a 12.02 @ 110 with a 1.62 60'. Spun every run


                    again, your car/your money, and ANY cam-even a "normal" stock one-
                    should get you 350hp+ and 500ftlb no matter what.
                    Last edited by fatguyzinc; July 20, 2017, 10:12 AM.

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                    • #25
                      for the record, me thinks a 12.02 out of a 4000lb luxorod with
                      "only" a 280 cam is absolutely STELLAR.....
                      i was S_E_R_I_O_U_S_L_Y impressed...
                      dont know who it was, but DAMN buddy--good job.

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                      • #26
                        I called up isky and they gave me a custom grind for a cam with even more lift than the 292 and duration was right around 240 i believe. your gran prix sounds damn fine. comps tech support kind of sucks they wont respond to my camquire thing so im thinkin isky will get my money because they actually took the time out of their day to hook up a custom grind
                        Last edited by pontiacpower; July 26, 2017, 12:30 PM.

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                        • #27
                          So comp finally got back with me and gave me K51-226-4 as a recommendation. Higher lift for both valves than the isky. It's also only $430 for cam, lifters, springs and retainers. Isky is over 600 for cam, springs retainers locks not sure about lifters but I don't think it comes with the timing chain and gears though.

                          Is the isky going to be worth the price?

                          I'm going to have the money to drop here pretty soon and I'm behind on the goal of getting this thing going by the end of summer

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                          • #28
                            isky uses better quality cores. proof? comp tells you to break-in
                            a flat tappet hydraulic using only the outer valve springs.

                            also 9 out of 10 times the isky is ground on a shorter LC
                            than the comp (typically comp grinds on 110 and isky on 108)
                            and the iskys always seem to pull harder/farther and be more
                            explosive when the 'come on the cam'--both in seat of the pants
                            feel and dyno numbers.

                            for my money, i NEVER run comp cams unless its
                            absolutely neccessary and i need it NOW.........

                            again, your car/your money/your call. just the video of that 4000+lb
                            grand prix honking out a 12.02--thats 3 HUNDREDTHS of a second
                            off an 11.99-- with "only" a 280 isky would have sold me 100%.....

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                            • #29
                              makes sense. Im fine with spending money if its a better end product. im just trying to cut corners wherever i can without screwing up the engine. Isky it is.

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                              • #30
                                Part of the reason a higher lift works better is the valve opens faster. It doesn't spend as much time at the top as it does at the lower lifts. Its open at least .3 for most of the time its open, thats where the Pontiac head starts flowing fast. On a 400 or 350 with low compression, that is detrimental to bottom end, because the overlap will kill the torque down low. The lift and duration go hand in hand with higher lift. You have physical limits on how fast you can open the valve, and how far, in every engine. In a high compression 455 there is more than enough vacuum to pull air in there with a higher lift cam.Get your heads ported over the winter and you will have a monster that shreds tires, even with the Isky 292, no need for a 3500 stall, stay under 3000, and don't go any deeper than 3.42 ever with iron heads on a 455.

                                Im thinking my 400 will get a cam similar to the RA IV but with a 108, possibly some more intake duration and lift. The bird was running high 11s with these 670 heads on a cast rod 455, with only an UltraDyne 288/296 cam, it had a 108 if I remember right. Not very much cam there, doesn't need much, but could've used more I'm sure.

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