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LS, Coyote or Gen 3 Hemi? Which is best?

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  • #31
    And what's wrong with a 305? I remember everyone laughing at the 400 small block. Not as much in hindsight.... It WAS a better idea it seems. At least when it got copied.

    The REALLY dumb SBC was the 262. Owned one, regret it. Wouldn't pull OR rev. It just coulda been a V8 so it was.
    Last edited by RockJustRock; June 13, 2018, 03:35 PM.
    My hobby is needing a hobby.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post

      Wow is that a lot of words.... But you were there, I was lost online that period. But.... the truck use was just a happy accident, not by design? It was REALLY just the new Corvette engine? And where the cam sits is just part of the RPM range equation. How much tighter does a Coyote rev when a Coyote does rev revs? The Yellow Bullet guys claim the block splits if you boost them much (cheap shot, but not ME).
      Sorry for too many words. Dan is right that LS had to work in both. But Corvette did drive some of the features and performance targets. A pure, built-to-a-price truck engine could have gotten by with less.

      Valve curtain area, not cam position, is the key factor (see e.g. PSD, Duramax . . . .) . Four smaller valves can have more area for a given lift than two big ones. Cam timing can be more conservative . . . . Splitting the exhaust lobes from the intake lobes also allows emission and performance-friendly variable cam phasing (TiVCT is one reason why the Coyote is so much more powerful than the earlier mod DOHCs). But Coyote is not an F1 engine by any means, Pent-roof chambers tend to unshroud the valves better than wedge chambers . . . .

      305 Chevy had poor breathing and too many cheap internals (cost and weight cutting gone too far). A weak mill compared to many other "small blocks." Better than the horrible 301 Pontiac and the 267/262 SBC. Not as responsive to home bolt-ons as a 302 Ford, though.

      The great happy accident (which I believe was no accident) is that the 1955 "Motoramic" RPO Chevy V8 easily fit in the same spots as a 1932-1953 Ford Flathead V8 (and Ford's Y-Block and most other OHVs did not) . . . that got the ball rolling (along with a long list of other moves (See Vince Piggins and Zora Arkus-Duntov) and the huge production volumes for the engine).

      LS had to use the "traditional" 4.4" bore centers because of machine tooling costs. But they also learned from a lot of later V8s (other, later GMs and W-i-n-d-s-o-r . . . . )

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      • #33
        Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post
        Strange.... is there a lot of carnage at new Hemi races?
        Not underhood. A lot of G3 Hemi carnage is actually in day-to-day cars...a plastic timing chain tensioner, ring lands that like to frag out, and pistons that can't take abuse quite like JY LS stuff is the majority. At races, generally it's the drivetrain that suffers the wrath. Axle shafts, transmissions and rear gear units. The 5.7 in Angry Grandpa gets rung out harder than most, is only mildly warmed over and has been as reliable as an anvil, even after 100,000+ miles of near-abusive behavior. I'd love to shove one in a RWD-converted Daytona with a six-speed and really have some fun with it.

        Editor-at-Large at...well, here, of course!

        "Remy-Z, you've outdone yourself again, I thought a Mirada was the icing on the cake of rodding, but this Imperial is the spread of little 99-cent candy letters spelling out "EAT ME" on top of that cake."

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        • #34
          All this analysis.

          LS is CHEAP and interchangeability is second to none. Add to this full aftermarket support? yeah, it's number one because they're cheap, light, small, robust and cheap to mod... but GP is right, boring as hell. Not just that but none of them have torque.

          Ford can't let a good modification go, Problem comes when you try to fit parts - it gets really expensive, and after a few returns to manufacturer more than a little annoying. Put aside for a moment quality issues, listening to the Ford guys go on about how this, with a bit of mod, will fit there and GM guys look at them like they grew a third head thinking "but I bought my heads online and bolted them to a 60s motor...." the OHC cam motors? pure awesome, but fit it in a small space..... there's a reason that some guy is putting a v12 in a Mustang...

          Mopars are a pig. Personally I think McSquatch has financed at least 2 Saudi princes with the miles put on his 300. Overbuilt, needlessly complex, but oh good lord the performance potential... if it didn't have performance potential Mopar wouldn't have outlasted AMC. Raw power and power potential, I still think Hemi is king.... of course, that's all straight line because have you ever seen an elephant on ice skates? It's akin to McSquatch on ice skates - a terrible thing to watch, but you cannot look away.

          Doing it all wrong since 1966

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          • #35
            Speaking for a ford guy. The mod motors never really won favor with the masses. I think the coyote has but it has not been around that long the f150 got the 5.0 in 2011? Salvage yard price is about 2k around here. Guess what a 2011 Silverado 5.3 is also about 2k. But when the LS is in the u pull it from the early 2000's trucks, no one wants a 04 4.6 2 valve.
            the real reason I will not consider a coyote is: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m6017a504vb
            you can cut down and reflash a ls for next to nothing.$1500 just to make it run for the control pack. They say the f150 harness is so integrated is useless.
            that's my complaint is the tuning / eec cost. I would consider $2k for a engine.
            Find Ford Performance Parts 5.0L Crate Engine Control Packs M-6017-A504VB and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing! Ford Performance Parts Coyote 5.0L crate engine control packs are designed to properly wire Ford Performance Parts 5.0L modular crate engines. They include a specially-calibrated PCM, an electronic throttle control accelerator pedal, an air intake assembly, an MAF sensor, and all necessary wiring and harness adapters. You can eliminate the complexity of wiring modular 5.0L crate engines with one of these Ford Performance Parts engine control packs. Additional technical information: * Control pack M-6017-504V available for 2015-16 5.0L 4V Coyote engines, M-6007-M50A and M-6007-A50NAA 5.0L 4V Ti-VCT crate engines with manual transmission; M-6007-A50SCA and truck engines require modifications * Control pack M-6017-A504VA available for 2011-14 5.0L 4V Coyote engines, M-6007-M50 and M-6007-A50NA 5.0L 4V Coyote crate engines with manual transmission (adds wiring for Speed Dial M-4209ADPT-AC to pick up transmission output speed); M-6007-A50SC, M-6007-A50XS, Boss 302 and truck engines require modifications * Supercharged engines, M-6007-A50SC, M-6007-A50SCA, M-6007-A50XS, Boss 302 and truck engines require custom calibration * Electronic throttle control accelerator pedal eliminates throttle cable routing problems * Unique controls pack harness replaces stock body harness and is designed for street rod installation * Features OBD-II diagnostic port to assist in vehicle calibration upload and problem diagnosis * Includes power distribution module, air box, air inlet tube, MAF sensor, upper and lower radiator hoses and HEGO sensors * PCM (remanufactured) with Ford Performance calibration requires return-type fuel system, will not work with returnless fuel system * Installation of this PCM in a 2011-16 Mustang GT will result in a no-start condition * Not for use with a 2015-16 F150 engines Find Ford Performance Parts 5.0L Crate Engine Control Packs M-6017-A504VB
            http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...-consolidation
            1.54, 7.31 @ 94.14, 11.43 @ 118.95

            PB 60' 1.49
            ​​​​​​

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            • #36
              Uhhhhh.... Dumb out of touch RJR here.... Can't you get aftermarket EFI for almost anything?
              My hobby is needing a hobby.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

                Mopars are a pig. Personally I think McSquatch has financed at least 2 Saudi princes with the miles put on his 300. Overbuilt, needlessly complex, but oh good lord the performance potential... if it didn't have performance potential Mopar wouldn't have outlasted AMC. Raw power and power potential, I still think Hemi is king.... of course, that's all straight line because have you ever seen an elephant on ice skates? It's akin to McSquatch on ice skates - a terrible thing to watch, but you cannot look away.
                AMC looked to Renault for a bailout...Chrysler looked to the government. Still think AMC was going down first. And I'm nowhere near stupid enough to ice-skate. My ankles have suffered enough without that.

                Here's the thing about the Mopars...normal, realistic humans fit. S197 Mustangs are alright, but between the S550 and the fifth and sixth-gen Camaros, no thank you. Too much "sports car". Too small inside. Shouldn't have to gangsta-lean the driver's seat when it's all the way back to fit and see traffic lights. LX platform might be a bit bigger, but I'd take any of them simply because they are more usable day to day.
                Editor-at-Large at...well, here, of course!

                "Remy-Z, you've outdone yourself again, I thought a Mirada was the icing on the cake of rodding, but this Imperial is the spread of little 99-cent candy letters spelling out "EAT ME" on top of that cake."

                Comment


                • #38
                  We're havin' some fun now.... back to aftermarket EFI, Gen 3 Hemi? Coyote? And why oh why is EVERY turbo and blower kit exactly $5K?
                  My hobby is needing a hobby.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BangShift McT View Post

                    AMC looked to Renault for a bailout...Chrysler looked to the government. Still think AMC was going down first. And I'm nowhere near stupid enough to ice-skate. My ankles have suffered enough without that.

                    Here's the thing about the Mopars...normal, realistic humans fit. S197 Mustangs are alright, but between the S550 and the fifth and sixth-gen Camaros, no thank you. Too much "sports car". Too small inside. Shouldn't have to gangsta-lean the driver's seat when it's all the way back to fit and see traffic lights. LX platform might be a bit bigger, but I'd take any of them simply because they are more usable day to day.
                    Hemi came out in the late 50s, became the de-facto king of the 1/4 in the 60s, pollution controls killed it, and they got a bailout 10 years after AMC died because they had no halo, just adequate cars performing adequately.... still don't believe me?
                    McSquatch on ice sounds like a Disney film though I imagine that film would have substantially more cussing then your typical disney fare.
                    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; June 14, 2018, 07:51 AM.
                    Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Russell View Post
                      Speaking for a ford guy. The mod motors never really won favor with the masses. I think the coyote has but it has not been around that long the f150 got the 5.0 in 2011? Salvage yard price is about 2k around here. Guess what a 2011 Silverado 5.3 is also about 2k. But when the LS is in the u pull it from the early 2000's trucks, no one wants a 04 4.6 2 valve.
                      the real reason I will not consider a coyote is: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m6017a504vb
                      you can cut down and reflash a ls for next to nothing.$1500 just to make it run for the control pack. They say the f150 harness is so integrated is useless.
                      that's my complaint is the tuning / eec cost. I would consider $2k for a engine.
                      Russell is right.

                      The Ford aftermarket is ripe for someone to:

                      1. Offer cheap control pack/stand alone wiring for Coyote (Megasqurt based?) The Ford Performance stuff is too expensive for many grassroots Fordophiles. There really isn;t any technical reason why the Coyote couldn't be adapted to run a much simplified wiring and control set

                      2. Make a hybrid Coyote-style head for the 2V SOHC. (Not enough bang for the buck from the aftermarket SOHC heads)

                      That being said, as long as 6+ liter engines harvested from salvage yards and cheap crate engines are the "standards" for hot rod powerplants, it's going to be tough for Ford power to gain market share in hot rodding. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post
                        And why oh why is EVERY turbo and blower kit exactly $5K?
                        They're not. On 3 and CX Racing stuff is cheaper. Hellion, for example, is more expensive.

                        Supply and demand is one reason for pricing. Competing blower kits are in a similar price range. And few turbo kits, if any, have mass-production economies of scale.

                        Also, markups to list price in the aftermarket are often in the range of 100% over cost (remember there's got to be "meat" for jobbers and distributors in addition to the kit maker) .


                        In other words -- here's an estimate of kit wholesale costs to the seller (i.e. a typical undercapitalized small turbo kit "garage" business which outsources much of the manufacturing):

                        Turbo cost: $750 (unless you go Chinese, buy in huge numbers, or are a big in-house turbo manufacturer)

                        Cold side pipes cost: $200

                        Charge Air Cooler cost: $300 (lower if you've got a quality Chinese source or bigger volumes)

                        Stainless headers/exhaust manifiolding cost: $500

                        Wastegate cost: $100

                        Blowoff valve cost: $100

                        V-band clamps, silicone connector hoses, and cold-side clamps cost: $100

                        Downpipes cost: $75

                        Shipping boxes, handling and logistics overhead cost: $50

                        Taxes, R&D, advertising, rent and utilities, order processing labor, loan servicing, and other overhead: $325

                        Total cost to kit seller: $2,500.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by BangShift McT View Post
                          LX platform might be a bit bigger, but I'd take any of them simply because they are more usable day to day.
                          When my wife retired our '04 Marauder from a decade of daily use, we almost bought a new Challenger R/T because of the extra interior room (The F&I pirate got greedy and ran us off). Then I measured our garage on a lark, and realized that I wouldn't have been able to open the long Challenger door enough for me to get out of the car. Bullet dodged!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post
                            Uhhhhh.... Dumb out of touch RJR here.... Can't you get aftermarket EFI for almost anything?
                            Sure you can get an aftermarket market efi controler. But that is an extra cost. And the question is which one is the best. If you are swapping the new engine into an older car on a budget adding after market efi can be a big part of the budget. I am not a hemi fan I more or less think all dodge stuff is junk, and ford has made it to complicated, so LS gets the win. Your milage may very. This is just my opinion. FYI for the most part everything I own is stockish.

                            I would like to do some engine swaps when time money and the state of NC will let me I might. To get them to pass inspection before they are 35 years old can be very costly.
                            http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...-consolidation
                            1.54, 7.31 @ 94.14, 11.43 @ 118.95

                            PB 60' 1.49
                            ​​​​​​

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                            • #44
                              Motors in demolition derby:

                              FORDS:
                              If seen, usually 460.. Tough motors, run hot ok.. Go thru trannys too fast. Mark 7 460/C-6, ran 6 times, rebuilt trnny 4 times
                              5.0's usually one/done.
                              292's supposedly run glowing red hot
                              352-390 small heads, almost never blow head gaskets
                              None of the moderns go in derbys

                              MOPARS:
                              400's over 440's
                              Nobody much wastes time with anything else but 360's

                              GM:
                              Chevy small blocks because older heads are hefty cast.. Head warp almost never happens.. Head gaskets when too hot, yes.
                              Saw pics on ONE BBC in a derby car. And he had a BLOWER!

                              LS: lots in.. Almost never blow head gaskets. Many even run 3 speed manuals! supposedly a simple cam swap, intake and carb with a distributor makes sick power, but those I see are guys who do not have the package (total car) figured out..

                              We run 03-up Crown Vics. With small block chevvys.
                              They are set up pretty sweet. Son runs 350 with Dart heads and near 14-1 cr. Daughter runs a 400 with older 327 heads that were cleaned up and fat seats (theory is the seats do not burn like normal seats.) Both run rowdy solid lifter cams and roller rockers.. Proven packages.

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                              • #45
                                If GM had let their top LS truck engines languish at a pathetic 210 hp to 231 hp for 11 years, would we even be talking about LS engines?

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