LS, Coyote or Gen 3 Hemi? Which is best?

[RockJustRock]

This one?

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1203-horsepower-426-hemi-crate-engine/

[Monster]

You keep referring to "The Oracle", like we are supposed to know what you are talking about ... but I still don't understand what you are driving at.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

Not to question The Oracle, but with demand so high can one still say cheapest? Can't quibble about size though. I think support is kind of a non-point, as long as there is ANY there is enough. With supply unlimited in the aftermarket competition should make PARTS cheaper, but this is 2018.

I just hear the anecdotes from the LS fans about how cheap they say they score 'em . . . they're even making waves in the annual Grassroots Motorsports 201X challenge competitions, where budgets are supposedly hard-capped.

Personally, I don't find hardly any cheap newish engines except maybe the unpopular, unwanted stuff (various DOHC 4s and 6s . . . SOHC Mods).

Probably around a million or so LS 'plants now hit the salvages every year, so even with supply and demand (and factoring out crate motors), pricing will tend to be a lot friendlier than some rarer and more exotic engines. The big speed conglomerates (Read: Holley, Edelbrock) are "all in" with LS support (which can't really be said for any other late model V8), so that means build prices are going to be somewhat lower. And the JY 5.3 turbo conversion is nearing near legendary status in some places . . . .

These are tough facts for Brand X loyalists, but they are undeniable. Cheap often beats technologically more advanced.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

I feel the biggest fail of Detroit in the past was the wrong kind of breathing to fit the bottom end and the balance between intake and exhaust.

In my OPINION, the biggest fails of Detroit are Ford's 25+ years of extreme stinginess with V8 four-valve heads and cheaping out on boost-averse hypereutectic pistons and cracked-cap (CRAP) rods. Had Ford flooded the market with DOHC and matched GM cube-for-cube with DOHC (e.g. DOHC four-valve 6.2 "Boss"), there might be a lot more interest in Blue Oval power. I could be wrong . . . .

Why no EcoBoost V8 after NINE model years of EcoBoost hype is also unfathomable. Ford is its own worst enemy in grassroots motorsports and hot rodding.

[DanStokes]

The reason Ford hasn't done more is simple - $$$$. Nearly ALL buyers simply buy and then drive whatever the manufacturers put under their right foot and if it moves with reasonable acceleration and velocity nothing more is expected. The vast majority of the motoring public (at least the male majority) wants to talk a good game but in reality they just drive what they bought. Any manufacturer who builds cars for the likes of us will lose their shirt. So, in order to build some street cred, they build a few Corvettes, Hellcats, or Mustangs but that's NOT where the majority of their R&D or advertising budget goes. GM did not set out to build the World's Greatest Hot Rod Engine. They built something that would work in their trucks (and coincidentally in their performance cars) and it turned out to be plentiful and easy to build so it gets used that way.

The sad reality is that WE DON'T MATTER except as a bragging point to boost sales of the run-of-the-mill car and, increasingly, truck lines. Sorry - I know the truth sometimes hurts.

Dan

[BBR]

Technically best: Coyote by a country mile. They have the ability to make stupid power, but it's probably not best for the "screwdriver tuning" crowd.

My preference is the Gen 3 Hemi with a carb though. The Mustang told me it reeeaaaaallllyyy wants one. I told it to shut up, sit in the corner and enjoy it's current SBF.

[RockJustRock]

In my OPINION, the biggest fails of Detroit are Ford's 25+ years of extreme stinginess with V8 four-valve heads and cheaping out on boost-averse hypereutectic pistons and cracked-cap (CRAP) rods. Had Ford flooded the market with DOHC and matched GM cube-for-cube with DOHC (e.g. DOHC four-valve 6.2 "Boss"), there might be a lot more interest in Blue Oval power. I could be wrong . . . .

Why no EcoBoost V8 after NINE model years of EcoBoost hype is also unfathomable. Ford is its own worst enemy in grassroots motorsports and hot rodding.

Me 'n Jack Roush think Ford's biggest mistake ever was the exhaust port on the Cleveland head. I do THIS, Jack had a guy fire up the Bridgeport.

Enough intake port volume for 15,000 RPM on anything BOSS and the SOHC runs second.

[RockJustRock]

You keep referring to "The Oracle", like we are supposed to know what you are talking about ... but I still don't understand what you are driving at.

If that's you saying "no derogatory nicknames" duly noted and I will refrain. If not, let me know and put the hammer away and I will 'splain.

[RockJustRock]

In my OPINION, the biggest fails of Detroit are Ford's 25+ years of extreme stinginess with V8 four-valve heads and cheaping out on boost-averse hypereutectic pistons and cracked-cap (CRAP) rods. Had Ford flooded the market with DOHC and matched GM cube-for-cube with DOHC (e.g. DOHC four-valve 6.2 "Boss"), there might be a lot more interest in Blue Oval power. I could be wrong . . . .

Why no EcoBoost V8 after NINE model years of EcoBoost hype is also unfathomable. Ford is its own worst enemy in grassroots motorsports and hot rodding.

For the Ecoboost portion of our program, Detroit engineers get REALLY wacky on anything turbo V8. Witness the Frankenstein Monster that was the Turbo Trans Am. Maybe it was something Oldsmobile did?

[RockJustRock]

And if I would have called the thread "Why is the LS TOO popular?" Would anyone have posted anything as interesting?

[RockJustRock]

Wowsers..... Junkyard prices per The Hollander Guide USED to be half parts counter new. THIS is DIFFERENT.

http://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/locations/LKQ_Pick_Your_Part_-_Wilmington-261/prices/

No WONDER Chad loves to blow stuff up with nitrous!

[Gateclyve Photographic]

GM did not set out to build the World's Greatest Hot Rod Engine. They built something that would work in their trucks (and coincidentally in their performance cars) and it turned out to be plentiful and easy to build so it gets used that way.

Dan, that may be what they said to the beancounters and shareholders, but at least some of the LS design was in-house reaction to the Lotus-designed, Mercury Marine-built 1990-1995 LT5 . . . there were relatively vocal GM engineers who took offense at the outsourcing and believed that they could beat it with "traditional" two-valve pushrod architecture. Some of this was likely reinforced by the continued research in such engines for rules-limited competition purposes (NASCAR and NHRA). Most certainly emissions, fuel economy, manufacturing costs, tooling compatibility, packaging and other factors were huge influences.

The fact that Corvette has to hit certain performance and power-to-weight targets to remain market competitive has long had a trickle down effect on several generations of V8s (and a halo effect -- there have probably been 2-3 times as many "Corvette" V8s installed in hot rods than GM ever built) . GM divisions and other OEMs without a similar "driver" have generally yielded less consistent trickle down development.

To be sure, production cost is always a major OEM consideration. Big, relatively slow-turning two-valve OHVs are likely always going to be cheaper than multi-valve DOHC engines. But at least GM learned in the bad, old '80s that they could get too clever and too cheap with awful results (301 Pontiac, 305 Chevrolet . . . .) The LS is also a learned reaction to that as well, justified by tighter NHV and warranty standards.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

Me 'n Jack Roush think Ford's biggest mistake ever was the exhaust port on the Cleveland head. I do THIS, Jack had a guy fire up the Bridgeport.

Enough intake port volume for 15,000 RPM on anything BOSS and the SOHC runs second.

I thought we were talking 21st century V8 engines . . . . If we're going ~ fifty years back, the list of mistakes gets lengthy . . . .

[RockJustRock]

I thought we were talking 21st century V8 engines . . . . If we're going ~ fifty years back, the list of mistakes gets lengthy . . . .

Stream of consciousness at 3 AM. Side comment (my thread, my hijack). I SAID "in the past". They're getting the exhaust scavenging figured out lately although $500 for a muffler cutout is a bit cheeky!

[RockJustRock]

Dan, that may be what they said to the beancounters and shareholders, but at least some of the LS design was in-house reaction to the Lotus-designed, Mercury Marine-built 1990-1995 LT5 . . . there were relatively vocal GM engineers who took offense at the outsourcing and believed that they could beat it with "traditional" two-valve pushrod architecture. Some of this was likely reinforced by the continued research in such engines for rules-limited competition purposes (NASCAR and NHRA). Most certainly emissions, fuel economy, manufacturing costs, tooling compatibility, packaging and other factors were huge influences.

The fact that Corvette has to hit certain performance and power-to-weight targets to remain market competitive has long had a trickle down effect on several generations of V8s (and a halo effect -- there have probably been 2-3 times as many "Corvette" V8s installed in hot rods than GM ever built) . GM divisions and other OEMs without a similar "driver" have generally yielded less consistent trickle down development.

To be sure, production cost is always a major OEM consideration. Big, relatively slow-turning two-valve OHVs are likely always going to be cheaper than multi-valve DOHC engines. But at least GM learned in the bad, old '80s that they could get too clever and too cheap with awful results (301 Pontiac, 305 Chevrolet . . . .) The LS is also a learned reaction to that as well, justified by tighter NHV and warranty standards.

Wow is that a lot of words.... But you were there, I was lost online that period. But.... the truck use was just a happy accident, not by design? It was REALLY just the new Corvette engine? And where the cam sits is just part of the RPM range equation. How much tighter does a Coyote rev when a Coyote does rev revs? The Yellow Bullet guys claim the block splits if you boost them much (cheap shot, but not ME).