Why Kids Buy Japanese

[milner351]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I was really hoping when I wrote that, folks would reply and prove me wrong, I'm glad you have.

I WANT to believe hot rodders are not a dying breed, and some replies have proven that to be true, thank you.

I respect the power some of these guys are making with smaller engines...

However, (cause I'm cheap)
-- what's the $$/HP figure for those 4 or 7HP/in^3 engines?
and at what RPM do they make that power?

What most American gearheads love is low end torque - that's what throws you into the back of your seat- and big cubes make that happen pretty easy.

I would LOVE to see something like an ecotec or ztec in a light old truck, heck even a T bucket, or a british or italian sports car, it would be very cool done right - turbo, no fart can muffler, good weight distribution, etc... and killer cruising MPG, and a 5 or 6 speed manual of course.

For that matter - how hard would it be to make a fun to drive cobra kit with I4 or I6 power?
How 'bout a trail blazer I6 turbo'd and stuffed into a F5 cobra kit?

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I want to put a Duratec 3.0L Jag/Lincoln V6 with 2 turbos into a F5 Daytona Coupe.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I guess, I'm in the middle on this. I love 6cylinder stuff but I'm partial to the Buick 3.8 and 3800 engines, Jeep 4.0L I6, and starting to get excited about my 3.0L Duratec in my LS. I like V8, I4's are really my thing but lots of power out of a small motor gets my respect no doubt. What I really want to play with is a V12.

[bnjny]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

LMAO! Kids are not the only people buying Japanese...

Just to push aside some falacies posted here...

Money... Yes and no... Ever seen what is called a VIP car? Or a guy/gal who takes a 40k Infiniti and puts a turbo on it?

Interests... Not for nothing but a Cobalt interior sucks azz... For that matter the previous gen CTS-V interior sucked azz... Are these great driving cars? YES! But not on a daily basis... Most young guys want a car where everything works and works well together...

My Saturn Vue sucks. The interior has sharp edges to the plastic trim, the wood trim looks like wallpaper and is powered by a Honda V6 because the Euro based GM V6 sucked.


I'm not a import fan or a domestic fan. I'm a fan of cars period.


Debate all you want and try and find all the reasons why... Bottom line is people will do what they want based on what is the 'in' thing...

I've never been a 'in' guy. I buy the cars I like and play with them... If somebody doesn't like it, who cares?

He/she does not pay my bills or walk in my shoes...

A true car board would be interested in all cars. Maybe one day that will happen, where people share idieas about what they have done instead of what they think people shoudl do... Everyone is entitled to an opinion, everyone is not entitled to shove their opinion down your throat.

The hot rodding is dead thing is the most stupid thing I have read in recent times... Look around, its not dead it is evolving... If you can't keep up, don't slow it down for the rest of us...

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

However, (cause I'm cheap)
-- what's the $$/HP figure for those 4 or 7HP/in^3 engines?
and at what RPM do they make that power?

The Miata project car in our shop is around 3 hp/ci at the flywheel, with around $5K in mods. You can find some dyno graphs on its build page. The power starts coming on at around 3,500 so it's not exactly a low RPM grunt machine, but it's not a sportbike with four wheels either.

[milner351]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

Matt - that thing sounds very cool - too bad I'm too tall to fit in a miata.

""The hot rodding is dead thing is the most stupid thing I have read in recent times... Look around, its not dead it is evolving... If you can't keep up, don't slow it down for the rest of us... ""

bnjny- Thanks - I didn't say hot roddind is dead - this board is proof of that, but we have lost a lot of significant hot rod pioneers as of late, and there are fewer and fewer folks that know what a carburetor is, let alone how to rebuild one, I'm only 37, and a friend of mine is 32, and has never owned a car with a carburetor! Evolution is here for sure.

Don't miss understand me - I like the evolution - I'm not slowing anyone down - just having a friendly debate.

Heck, I know a thing or two about 4 bangers... - I worked at Honda R&D for 5 years.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

Milner, great questions.

I'm planning an Ecotec build, here's an idea what gets me to 600-700 fwhp.

Running 2.2 LSJ Ecotec from the junkyard: $300
Upgraded rods & pistons : $850
Injectors, fuel pump and fuel supply misc: $1500
Turbo: $1200 (admittedly, I get a little discount)
Intercooler, piping, misc. $1000
Engine management: $500ish (megasquirt I build myself, with a harness I make myself, my experience in this area is saving me upwards of $2000)
Stuff I am forgetting: ~$1500

This is for an engine that will be reliable, streetable, and capable of 30mpg in a 2800 lb car.

I'm sure I am missing a few things but that's ballpark. There are guys in the MItsubishi world who are putting 500+ to the wheels, with nothing but turbo and fuel system upgrades.

The idea that it costs infinitely more dollars to make power on small displacement inline motors, is generally exaggerated among domestic builders.

[Vegaman]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

For me it comes down to sound, I haven't heard a 4-cylinder I considered music to my ears. I've seen truely quick 4-cyl cars, and I'm impressed but it doesn't spark any interest for me. I like experiencing my cars, probably why I'm happy going as slow as mine are, and sound is a big part of that. That being said, for a new car (that I'd modify) I'd buy a Solstice before I'd buy a Corvette or Camaro.

I have to agree with you here. I quite like the Mitsu Eclipse's and thought about buying one and working on it, and I think I would have been perfectly happy with it until I pulled up to the lights and a big block Chevelle rumbled up beside,. Then I'd feel like I just wasted all my time and money. It's not always just about speed, sometimes it's about the whole experience (sight, sound etc)

[Vegaman]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I'm sure I am missing a few things but that's ballpark. There are guys in the MItsubishi world who are putting 500+ to the wheels, with nothing but turbo and fuel system upgrades.

The idea that it costs infinitely more dollars to make power on small displacement inline motors, is generally exaggerated among domestic builders.

not ragging on you here but genuinely curios. How long would these motors hold up to that much horsepower?

[dieselgeek]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I'm sure I am missing a few things but that's ballpark. There are guys in the MItsubishi world who are putting 500+ to the wheels, with nothing but turbo and fuel system upgrades.

The idea that it costs infinitely more dollars to make power on small displacement inline motors, is generally exaggerated among domestic builders.

not ragging on you here but genuinely curios. How long would these motors hold up to that much horsepower?

As long or longer than any comparable SBC with similar budget. No question about that - inline motors are notoriously tougher than their V-design counterparts. I've tuned a number of 600+ hp mitsu engines with 50,000 miles at that HP, street driven, this stuff is common. Think about it, no aggressive cams and the engines drive around town all day at 8.5:1 compression on crap gas, not in boost. On the weekends, turn up the bosst and toss in e85 or race gas, there are no aggressive valvetrains to wear out or adjust, no high compression... all you are giving up is the sound of a v8 with a huge cam. Turbo v8s are pretty good, but to take advantage of the displacement, you end up needing an expensive aftermarket block that can support the potential power of 350-450 cubes at 2 or 3 atmospheres.

[TC]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

Ya Honda's are great, not.

Just last night I had some kids in a honda with racing stickers and the good old fart can on it try to go at it with me. At first I wasn't going to waste the gas. But after the guy jumped on it I couldn't resist. So I waited until he got a few cars on me and then hammered it. The car downshifted into second and I caught him like he was standing still, not to mention that is how I left him.

The problem with imports is they might make 300hp but it is from a small displacement engine that needs lots of rpm to make that type of power, and we all know that HP made in high rpm doesn't produce much torque. And we all know it's torque that gets the car going.

[mike343sharpstick]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

There are a few obvious things not yet mentioned.
1. I am a little surprised nobody has mentioned “REPUTATION”. Not a reputation for performance, a reputation for reliability. The American car companies had, at one time, really screwed up by making some very bad small cars and are still paying for that mistake. It is undeniable that both Honda and Toyota have impeccable reputations. I have owned one of each, and in my experience each has been very nice reliable appliances.
2. Young drivers generally have less money to spend on gas, hence a 4-cylinder car. Then the “modify what ya’ got” kicks in and a faster 4-banger is born. If the used high-mileage Honda/Toyota/Suby was good to them the first time around, chances are pretty good that this individual will by a new version, of the same thing or a step up model from that same manufacturer.
3. Remember you guys that live in warm weather, ½ the country lives where it snows. Front wheel drive is the way to go if you have only a few thousand to spend. The reality is that the best option for a young driver is a front-drive 4-cylinder.

Now these new American pony cars are getting built just as fuel prices soar and Honda and Toyota again hit the mark with some very reliable hybrids. Much of what sells well, or is popular with the public is based on timing, and in recent history the US companies have been a bit "off", and it's unfortunate because they are making some fantastic hardware these days.

[TC]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

I'm sure I am missing a few things but that's ballpark. There are guys in the MItsubishi world who are putting 500+ to the wheels, with nothing but turbo and fuel system upgrades.

The idea that it costs infinitely more dollars to make power on small displacement inline motors, is generally exaggerated among domestic builders.

not ragging on you here but genuinely curios. How long would these motors hold up to that much horsepower?

As long or longer than any comparable SBC with similar budget. No question about that - inline motors are notoriously tougher than their V-design counterparts. I've tuned a number of 600+ hp mitsu engines with 50,000 miles at that HP, street driven, this stuff is common. Think about it, no aggressive cams and the engines drive around town all day at 8.5:1 compression on crap gas, not in boost. On the weekends, turn up the bosst and toss in e85 or race gas, there are no aggressive valvetrains to wear out or adjust, no high compression... all you are giving up is the sound of a v8 with a huge cam. Turbo v8s are pretty good, but to take advantage of the displacement, you end up needing an expensive aftermarket block that can support the potential power of 350-450 cubes at 2 or 3 atmospheres.

Going cheap isn't just for import guys, when I was younger, I would just go to the junkyard get a cast crank/piston SBC short block, throw a Crane 278 cam in it, with a set of ported camel hump heads and a Team-G intake with a 750 double pumper, and a NOS cheater system and my car went mid 11's. And get this I never broke a crank, or rod or anything, basically after a year or so of going through a bottle about once a week I would end up burning a hole in the top of one of the piston. And then it was a trip back to the junkyard for another short block. And at $150 a short block it was some the the cheapest fun I ever had.

So to say that imports are more reliable than first generation SBC's isn't what I'd be saying. In fact I'd like to see how long an import engine last with a 250 shot like I was running.

[RyanWalker]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

Milner, great questions.

I'm planning an Ecotec build, here's an idea what gets me to 600-700 fwhp.

Running 2.2 LSJ Ecotec from the junkyard: $300
Upgraded rods & pistons : $850
Injectors, fuel pump and fuel supply misc: $1500
Turbo: $1200 (admittedly, I get a little discount)
Intercooler, piping, misc. $1000
Engine management: $500ish (megasquirt I build myself, with a harness I make myself, my experience in this area is saving me upwards of $2000)
Stuff I am forgetting: ~$1500

This is for an engine that will be reliable, streetable, and capable of 30mpg in a 2800 lb car.

I'm sure I am missing a few things but that's ballpark. There are guys in the MItsubishi world who are putting 500+ to the wheels, with nothing but turbo and fuel system upgrades.

The idea that it costs infinitely more dollars to make power on small displacement inline motors, is generally exaggerated among domestic builders.

30mpg? How can a 291hp Evo get 16/22 but 600-700hp fwhp can get 30mpg ? Unless you can manipulate that motor to drive around town with 170 hp? If you can do that you seriously have my attention. Also for Joe Schmoe like me it's cheaper making power with a v8. Maybe not for guys like you with resources and lots of know how. You've gotta see it from that angle too. Or perhaps somebody's taste is a normally aspirated motor. I know that's a tricky and EXPENSIVE ordeal with an all motor small I4 vs. big cubic inches. Seriously I'd like to learn.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Why Kids Buy Japanese

The problem with imports is they might make 300hp but it is from a small displacement engine that needs lots of rpm to make that type of power, and we all know that HP made in high rpm doesn't produce much torque. And we all know it's torque that gets the car going.

Actually you are absolutely backwards. Torque at high RPM means higher horsepower, its all in the math on how they actually measure horsepower.

This has been a fundemental difference between how the cars were built. American cars go for the low down power and quick off the line power which means a short rear axle and an overdrive for the freeway. European cars tend to be tall on the rear end and run lower OD ratios or none at all and go more for the high speed charge. The Japanese cars tend to fit in the middle since the natural philosophy of a country with a 65mph top speed limit, crowded cities, and space limitations is to make cars that move well at more American freeway speeds and are good at loafing in cities.