Pure Oxygen injection as opposed to Nitrous Oxide?

[65longroof]

Just make sure everything is Oxygen clean, ie: no oils, grease. (Doesn't matter if it's liquid or gas phase.) Not sure that's possible with an engine... BE CAREFUL!! Suggest that they have a way to remotely shut off the supply of O2 if things go awry.

[BKBridges]

Seriously...
Fuel = anything other than a few different materials at any O2 concentration over 24%. Pressurize it and things just get worse. Plastics are no bueno at over 25psi and 24% other than KelF and a few others. Aluminum is dicey. Brass and nickle (alloy specific)are OK and wont burn. Cast Iron is OK but weak when things detonate and it entraps hydrocarbons wildly. Setting off the mixture can be as easy as closing an intake valve with no spark. Calculating the impact energy of valves, regulators, etc. is critical to determining the safety of the system at the given working pressures and concentrations. And of course, cleanliness is everything. If we were lucky enough to get to recycle a motor (Atlas vernier thrusters), our success rate recycling was about 50% due to entrapped Jet A residue that we missed. Blows em up good. External combustion (rocket) is IMO safer than trying internal combustion with LOX. Once the rocket motor blows, its all at atmospheric pressure. Not so with the BBC I fear. Id start with low concentration gaseous O2 enrichment for budgetary reasons

[Ron Ward]

[dieselgeek]

Seriously...
Fuel = anything other than a few different materials at any O2 concentration over 24%. Pressurize it and things just get worse. Plastics are no bueno at over 25psi and 24% other than KelF and a few others. Aluminum is dicey. Brass and nickle (alloy specific)are OK and wont burn. Cast Iron is OK but weak when things detonate and it entraps hydrocarbons wildly. Setting off the mixture can be as easy as closing an intake valve with no spark. Calculating the impact energy of valves, regulators, etc. is critical to determining the safety of the system at the given working pressures and concentrations. And of course, cleanliness is everything. If we were lucky enough to get to recycle a motor (Atlas vernier thrusters), our success rate recycling was about 50% due to entrapped Jet A residue that we missed. Blows em up good. External combustion (rocket) is IMO safer than trying internal combustion with LOX. Once the rocket motor blows, its all at atmospheric pressure. Not so with the BBC I fear. Id start with low concentration gaseous O2 enrichment for budgetary reasons

Well, the guy who designed the controls for this system just finished a project designing Lasers for the Navy that shoot down aircraft and satellites - a side project was the use of these "adjustable wavelength and focal point" lasers in the medical field, these are new tools that can zap a deep tumor without requiring an incision (stuff that just hit the marketplace).

The last project I observed these guys doing was a compact common rail diesel engine control system for unmanned helicopter engines... government work, again.

This project is civilian, but without giving away too many secrets - I'm perfectly comfortable standing (at a distance) and giving tuning advice on any project these guys manage to put together. I'm sure they appreciate any advice (as do I) but realize they've actually done a *little* bit of thinking ahead.

White paper for the control system shows multiple failsafe controls. The planned initial hit is a 10% enrichment by mass, which is a very small "shot" - it seems to me, the containment and required special handling are far and away the bigger concerns than the actual combustion. It's pretty easy to do the math to know how much extra fuel to add with the LOX - that is the easy part.

Still, I know they're planning on a little "boom boom" so, no big deal right?

[boxer3main]

I remember lox in the military.

a drop of oil demonstration to scare us newb crew chiefs.

formula 1 today plays with 87 octane variants and hits 18000 rpm.

the big dumb big block does not need a bomb.

if lacking air is seeming to be the problem...play with simple boost.

being as educated as the crew is to put this together...target the carb or something.

[BKBridges]

DG,
Id play as well, but on their dime! Just dont get casual with anything dealing with LOX. Without mentioning any names I know a real smart Phd guy that spent a few months in the burn ward after a little experiment. He does a lot of big brained science, and is normally very safe...but LOX can be cruel.
I designed valves and manifolding for adult volume ventilators for 13 years (delivers a finely tuned mixture of air and O2 up to 100% O2) and had to deal with a lot of system and controls requirements for O2 safety so I am a bit paranoid, but I do believe that if things are "thought out" safety is possible Oh and this: Always keep the cameras rolling during a test (everyone likes a good explosion on film)!
BKB

[dieselgeek]

DG,
Id play as well, but on their dime! Just dont get casual with anything dealing with LOX. Without mentioning any names I know a real smart Phd guy that spent a few months in the burn ward after a little experiment. He does a lot of big brained science, and is normally very safe...but LOX can be cruel.
I designed valves and manifolding for adult volume ventilators for 13 years (delivers a finely tuned mixture of air and O2 up to 100% O2) and had to deal with a lot of system and controls requirements for O2 safety so I am a bit paranoid, but I do believe that if things are "thought out" safety is possible Oh and this: Always keep the cameras rolling during a test (everyone likes a good explosion on film)!
BKB

I will bring my camera for sure.

I'm not even sure why these guys area asking me to be there but I will certainly make sure I am careful, and make sure these guys are safely handling the LOX.

Speaking of which, is it any safer to use 100% pure Gaseous Oxygen? similar handling concerns? or is it considered safer?

[65longroof]

Gaseous O2 has the same hazards as liquid, except that the liquid can expand at a ridiculous rate when it vaporizes, like 860:1. An example would be that one liter of liquid O2 would expand to 860 liters of gas at room temperature. For this reason, liquid oxygen should NEVER be trapped in a closed system without some kind of relief valve.

For your own awareness, check out this paper, it's worth a read and will open your eyes up to the dangers involved:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/...ed/1740151.pdf
Even the first few pages will give a good idea as to how careful you need to be.

I agree with BKBridges, even the most intelligent people can get into serious trouble if they're unfamiliar with oxygen handling safety and materials compatibility.

[BKBridges]

State change is a b+tch, making LOX tough to handle (not to mention COLD: Frozen valves, icing due to atmospheric H2O, seized valves due to differential expansion rates, stuck poppets etc or worse yet phase change in the wrong places..(boom).
Gaseous under 250psi isnt too bad to deal with as long as you know what the impact energy in the control system is (valves, regulators, etc.) and things are super clean...and the materials of construction dont look like fuel. I have seen high pressure regulators deflagrate on an oxygen cylinder (destructive testing) due to a small amount of oil (one drop) in the primary regulator poppet when the tank's valve was remotely opened... After that I was always a bit leary of turning hp O2 tank valves on, even on my welding tanks. POSD. Now I MIG
BKB

[dieselgeek]

Gaseous O2 has the same hazards as liquid, except that the liquid can expand at a ridiculous rate when it vaporizes, like 860:1. An example would be that one liter of liquid O2 would expand to 860 liters of gas at room temperature. For this reason, liquid oxygen should NEVER be trapped in a closed system without some kind of relief valve.

For your own awareness, check out this paper, it's worth a read and will open your eyes up to the dangers involved:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/...ed/1740151.pdf
Even the first few pages will give a good idea as to how careful you need to be.

I agree with BKBridges, even the most intelligent people can get into serious trouble if they're unfamiliar with oxygen handling safety and materials compatibility.

Spent a little time going through 2-1 (handling) - NASA does an excellent job explaining why this is not good stuff to use in an automotive environment.

I'm just there to observe and comment :-)

Thanks for the link !