Which EFI controller?

[TheSilverBuick]

I just did some budgeting on what it would take for my application to go FI.
This is not a 'Total' cost as it doesn't account for fuel lines and a few sensors, but is interesting no less.
Also remember for my car I have to convert from a mechanical fuel pump to something appropriate for FI.
Anyhoo...
MS II Kit $266.00
Relay board $88.00
Relay cable $85.00
Wiring Bundle $46.00
Fuel Pump $109.00
Fuel pump install kit $15.00
pre-filter $91.00
post-filter $91.00
"LC-1 Digital Wideband
Controller with Sensor" $199.00
TBI from junk yard $50.00
TOTAL $1,040.00 (add $166 for assembled MSII unit)

[Hi-Jack]
What filters cost $90 a pop? I went to the parts store and got an OE TBI filter for the pre-filter and an OE MPI filter for the post one. Maybe $20 a filter. Good enough for OE, good enough for me, particularly on TBI's.

On the TBI, you may be able to find a cheaper fuel pump. The high pressure Ford pump I use on the MPI is ~$109 mark (and I ran a junkyard one from a Ford van for a year and a half, now it's my spare). Might be able to find a ~20psi pump for less. Or not. I think I have the wrong fuel pump on my T-bird. It does fine for cruising, but at WOT it get's limited, and I'm thinking my 12psi pump isn't keeping up =P Interestingly enough, the stock mechanical pump has enough fuel pressure to let the T-bird idle with the electric pump turned off. I surprised when it started on me one day cranking with the fuel pump off to see how my tach signal looked.

[/HI-JACK]

[TC]

I hope that some day you actually do some form of EFI tuning so that you figure out "self learning" is an absolute waste of time and money - and nothing more than a marketing ploy to attract dummies.

I understand that you don't like the self learn tuning.......What I'm saying is Holley's higher end systems have it both ways.....you can get the engine started and a base table setup in a matter of minutes of starting and driving the vehicle, then after driving it and getting the base table automatically programmed for you, you can go in and change parameters more to your liking, just like you would do with any other efi system....... Basically it takes a lot of the headaches out of the equation that you would have with a Non-Self Learn system......

And don't forget about the article where the self learn system mirrored the HP output of the engine in a matter of a few dyno pulls, when it took the Professional EFI tuner at WesTech about 3 hours to do..........

[dieselgeek]

I understand that you don't like the self learn tuning.......What I'm saying is Holley's higher end systems have it both ways.....you can get the engine started and a base table setup in a matter of minutes of starting and driving the vehicle, then after driving it and getting the base table automatically programmed for you, you can go in and change parameters more to your liking, just like you would do with any other efi system....... Basically it takes a lot of the headaches out of the equation that you would have with a Non-Self Learn system......

And don't forget about the article where the self learn system mirrored the HP output of the engine in a matter of a few dyno pulls, when it took the Professional EFI tuner at WesTech about 3 hours to do..........

<sigh>

I'll explain my point not because I believe you'll ever tune anything with EFI but... "self tuning" is marketing hype. Tuning EFI is easier than tuning a carburetor, why would you not want todo that yourself?

Meanwhile, your refernces to advertising and bullshit magazine tests, don't really apply because - as usual - they're directed at people who don't know anything about EFI, don't have referencable friends to tell them what's important or not...

You think that just because you read it in a magazine, you bolt on and go. However, it's nothing like that - not even close. EVen the "EasyEFI" requires you to set up electronics and hardware. None of them mention that you likely need to upgrade your carb'd vehicle's electrical system (alternator) and there is a TON of other work in there such that - your hype about self tuning is like being excited about 1% of the job. Yay. now who is going to get off their ass and do all the rest of the work associated with any EFI system you have to install?

Also, what do you do about ignition? TC, you really should stop trying to sell everything you read about in HotRod and instead start getting experience with any of those products so instead of looking completely dumb, and having nobody trust a thing you say (the current situation) you might instead develop some credibility.

Self tuning is stupid. It's marketing hype. It's total shit to attract dumb people. DON'T BE A DUMB PEOPLE! :-)

[SuperBuickGuy]

I think the VVT thing is probably not going to be any kind of concern with turbos, too. but that's just my guess based on seeing many other swaps.

I did read the CTS Spyder thread so I am up to speed on the project now. Pretty cool!

I've heard conflicting stories about the GM computer. GM has been all about global platforms, and the 3.6 is an integral part of that idea. In Australia you can buy a new Holden with a 3.6 turbo motor in it from the factory - did GM just leave the software/hardware global as well, given their architecture? I don't know - but it costs me nothing to find out... who knows, maybe we'll go hmmm, that's interesting when it's running... one can always hope, but hope has a backup plan that's really what this discussion is about for that car.

I think at the hp levels (500 on the Spider, 700 on the Buick) I'm going for that the turbos should play okay. If not, you can get in line to tell me "I told you so," I will be selling tickets to that event, so you may wish to reserve early for best seats.

Thanks re: Spider thread.

[Bob Holmes]

On the Spider, make sure to leave an input and output free on the MS so that you can wire up a way to get your shorts cleaned pronto! Input senses WFO, output provides shorts cleaning.

[TC]

DG you should really real about the competition and not just assume.......

This system controls, the efi, ignition and transmission.........

[Paul Whalen]

I've heard conflicting stories about the GM computer. GM has been all about global platforms, and the 3.6 is an integral part of that idea. In Australia you can buy a new Holden with a 3.6 turbo motor in it from the factory - did GM just leave the software/hardware global as well, given their architecture? I don't know - but it costs me nothing to find out... who knows, maybe we'll go hmmm, that's interesting when it's running... one can always hope, but hope has a backup plan that's really what this discussion is about for that car.

I think at the hp levels (500 on the Spider, 700 on the Buick) I'm going for that the turbos should play okay. If not, you can get in line to tell me "I told you so," I will be selling tickets to that event, so you may wish to reserve early for best seats.

Thanks re: Spider thread.

The stock GM boxes are good for at least 700. Anything above that needs more control. The big drawback for me is the lack of real time tuning on the gm stuff. Tuning as you drive the car is just too cool. I have both a MS2 and a older fast setup so I am a bit spoiled. When I owned the dyno shop I did lots of boosted LS cars with HPT. It can be done but it takes a bit of work. I went to a class in fla by a place called The Tuning School- all HPT tuning. Learned a lot. As far as melting engines you have to be way off, or have too much
boost!

[SuperBuickGuy]

look at post 2 for a primer on melting pistons

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showthread.php/11037-1970-Buick-Skylark-part-II?highlight=skylark

and it didn't sound that bad up to the moment it finally blew

[CDMBill]

DG you should really real about the competition and not just assume.......

This system controls, the efi, ignition and transmission.........

How much is a Dominator EFI with all the sensors, harnesses, interface etc.?

[CTX-SLPR]

I'm with DG on the GM computer not being garanteed boost capable. I went through the same thing wanting to get the Aussie L67 (that's supercharged 3800 Series II) computer since it did boost and 4L60E trans controls but the computers were not the same and the Aussies swapped for aftermarket units because of lack of tuning options. Now I'm not rulling out that the computer might be the same, you could get the Aussie tune to start with, and HPTuners can sufficiently edit it; I just wouldn't go taking the fact that it's the same motor with boost for granted.
That being said, HPTuners can do a lot on systems they support and I know the 3.6 Camaro guys are begging for features. I mean I made mine work (still need to tune it but I've got leaks to fix first).

[SuperBuickGuy]

the Dominator is $1600 for the computer alone.

I don't know why Camaro guys are begging - HPTuners supports the 3.6 .... of course, the Camaro has that awesome (sarcasm there) manifold cast into the head and DI (read, expensive injectors). That said, here's some info on the 3.6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

here's the aussie one with a V2

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/news_summernats19_02_big.jpg

or simply an entire forum that talks in great detail about the 3.6 VVT motor.
http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/forum.php

while I remember - here's a good article on the VVT for the 3.6 http://diagnosticnews.com/tech/gms-v...-valve-timing/

[TheSilverBuick]

look at post 2 for a primer on melting pistons

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showthread.php/11037-1970-Buick-Skylark-part-II?highlight=skylark

and it didn't sound that bad up to the moment it finally blew

I'm guessing that didn't happen at idle or under normal cruising conditions.... Same with EFI, get it driving nice, watch/datalog the AFR's, and when you are happy with them at idle and cruise, extrapolate to WOT (nothing special has to be done for boost, the kPa values just go higher than 101.3), start way rich (ie make the map steep), then slowly lean out. It's easy to do and really doesn't take much time.

[dieselgeek]

TC, didn't I suggest the Dominator EFI in my first post? make sure you read before posting about me needing to "read up" - Holley isn't my competition either (unless they manage large network infrastructures?!?)

anyways back on topic, I like the Dominator EFI computer so far. But that's not anywhere near the Plug & Play startup that TC is thinking. That's a complete standalone with many of the same features of the Megasquirt-3. A nice system! hopefully it sticks around. Megasquirt will do the same self-VE tuning that the Dominator will do. Downside to the dominator is that it has no graphic VE table editor, no real dashboard for your laptop (purchase LCD display separately), and most important - no VE tables per cylinder - there's only a fixed percentage fuel trim per cylinder. Maybe they'll add this later on.

[SuperBuickGuy]

DG - I was speechless when you suggested the Dominator. At 3x the price (over the MSII), though, it better dance the jiggy and have hookups for a trap door under the driver's seat to keep waste from pooling (oh Bob).

What do you like about the Dominator? my initial guess was the VVT - but (from looking through the MS site) it appears that the MSII is capable of controlling it (though it's Vtec that it's aimed at)...


Randal - that also didn't happen with EFI.... but now I'm wondering how EFI would have handled it. It was an intermittent ping. Only happened when boost was higher that 6 psi, but not at WOT.

[dieselgeek]

DG - I was speechless when you suggested the Dominator. At 3x the price (over the MSII), though, it better dance the jiggy and have hookups for a trap door under the driver's seat to keep waste from pooling (oh Bob).

What do you like about the Dominator? my initial guess was the VVT - but (from looking through the MS site) it appears that the MSII is capable of controlling it (though it's Vtec that it's aimed at)...

The Dominator looks like a box that comes with most or all the important pieces. A few reasons it's more expensive than a Megqsquirt:

-comes in an OEM-style hardened case (harder to break)
-comes with appropriate quantity of install and tuning documentation (megasquirt tends to be "find your own way" in a sea of hazy options)
-comes with phone support (some people just need that warm voice on the other end of the line, even if it is a college kid with little practical experience)
-it has to make someone a profit

With Megasquirt being based on a GNU-style/Open Source model, most of the work going into it is/was voluntary (but we try to support the coders and hardware developers with a little $$ when possible). Nobody can compete with it on a feature/dollar comparison. But it's a little more work... although, as always, I think it's a good learning process to use a MS. Learning the details about how EFI works is a good thing IMO, even if it takes a few extra hours...

The stuff I like about the Dominator is listed in my two posts about it.

Meanwhile, sice you're active on BS.com, it's probably a good choice to use a Megasquirt variant. Heck, by time the Buick is ready for boost, there might even be a commercialized version of the MS3 available.