Which EFI controller?

[SuperBuickGuy]

"melt" is an ubiquitous term (to me) and can be used for rattling a motor to death, running it too lean, letting the smoke out of the wires, flooding the engine, swamping the engine (holley pro-jection in my case) or any of the other potential problems where electrons and newtonian physics meet to run amok.

so that's why I say "melt" as opposed to "run like raped ape" which is good (unless, I suppose you're the ape).

And why use MS vs. GM computer on the VVT V-6 Caddy motor?

[TheSilverBuick]

I've never used the HPT, but if the map sensor can take the boost and the ecm is okay with it, I don't see why not use the General's stuff, particularly if you already have the harness and wiring.

I'm thinking the wiring would be simpler with the MS though, but again, I don't know what the minimum HPT will be happy with on the wiring, could be the same.

[dieselgeek]

I'd probably try to make the GM computer work in your situation especially if the engine is going un-modified. Then you don't need to tune anything, you just need to figure out how to work around the VATS stuff. Use HPT to monitor all your inputs and outputs to make sure they're connected and working properly, and you hopefully have the CTS engine's wiring harness to make things easier.

[Stich496]

I'd probably try to make the GM computer work in your situation especially if the engine is going un-modified. Then you don't need to tune anything, you just need to figure out how to work around the VATS stuff. Use HPT to monitor all your inputs and outputs to make sure they're connected and working properly, and you hopefully have the CTS engine's wiring harness to make things easier.

he's hanging 2 hairdriers off it

[SuperBuickGuy]

I'd probably try to make the GM computer work in your situation especially if the engine is going un-modified. Then you don't need to tune anything, you just need to figure out how to work around the VATS stuff. Use HPT to monitor all your inputs and outputs to make sure they're connected and working properly, and you hopefully have the CTS engine's wiring harness to make things easier.

Thanks DG
I do have the harness, and I know I can turn the VATS off (as simple as that) with the HPTuner software.

Mark - the motor - the 3.6L motor - is turbo charged in Australia, so when GM designed the system, they made provision for turbo charging (from what I understand, it's adaptive)

Now, about that Buick.... MSII or III?

[TheSilverBuick]

I personally don't see the need to incure the costs of MS3 over MS2 unless you plan on mass amount of datalogging or looking for the n'th horsepower with sequential injection.

The deciding factor to me would be if you plan on doing AFR balancing on all the cylinders, if you intend on checking the AFR's on all the cylinders rather than a collector average, then go MS3, if not then MSII if you want IAC control, if you don't need that (use a simple high/low idle valve) then MSI/extra. That's how I'd decide what to use. I plan to balance the AFR's or EGT's on every cylinder of the turbo OHC L6 engine, so I'm going MS3 and sequential on that one. The T-bird will remain MS1 and eventually go MPI, and if I get around to the "on the cheap" MPI on the Centurion, it'll be an MS1.

[mike343sharpstick]

As mentioned in another thread, I'm seriously considering MSII and a GM TBI on my Javelin, may start the project very soon!
I'm not too concerned about the basic software setup, That's what I do all day.
The wiring and the tuning concerns me somewhat.
Installing a nice cleanly installed wiring harness that looks nice and functions properly seems like a challenge.
As far as tuning goes, well, it can't be worse than the stupid carter carb that's on there now, LOL. My early attempts at Holley tuning have been marginial as well as I don't have piles of jets and squirters on hand to 'tune' it.
Every change requires a mail-order part.
Changing a value on a table seems like a better solution.

[dieselgeek]

So the swapped v6 will have two turbos as well as the buick 455?

For the buick, I vote MS2. MS1 is getting old, there's probably better support for MS2 these days. I think it's a $60 upgrade from the MS1 to the MS2 (just a CPU chip swap, very simple). And then it's a few hundred when you go from MS2 to MS3, and yes you can do these upgrades incrementally. I think you're gonna want at least the MS2 though... feature envy is a bitch! :-)

Back to the CTS engine in the Fiat Spyder: first, I'd suggest ONE turbo and not two. Save yourself a heluva lot of money, and the "twins spool faster" argument is lame and inaccurate anyways. You likely don't need or want the VVT when you have boost (a few hp down on the top end? set the boost higher then!), but if you did, it's still a difficult toss up between stock GM computer and MS. I know the HPT stuff doesn't have nearly as many options for the v6 engines as they do for the v8s (someone correct me if that changed in the last 8-12 months please).

Meanwhile, for whatever reason, I've gotten a steady stream of high power LS customers fed up with their HPT and EFILive tunejobs by reputable shops... all of them are 1200+whp and keep killing motors on stock computers. I'm thinking the "right guy" can make it work, but HPT/EFILive is NOT easy stuff - it's more complicated than megasquirt by a lot, but gives you access to fewer features - about all you DO get from the stock computer is a few million dollars worth of drivability tuning (nice stuff!) and a (theoretically) easier wiring/installation job.

[mike343sharpstick]

I just did some budgeting on what it would take for my application to go FI.
This is not a 'Total' cost as it doesn't account for fuel lines and a few sensors, but is interesting no less.
Also remember for my car I have to convert from a mechanical fuel pump to something appropriate for FI.
Anyhoo...
MS II Kit $266.00
Relay board $88.00
Relay cable $85.00
Wiring Bundle $46.00
Fuel Pump $109.00
Fuel pump install kit $15.00
pre-filter $91.00
post-filter $91.00
"LC-1 Digital Wideband
Controller with Sensor" $199.00
TBI from junk yard $50.00
TOTAL $1,040.00 (add $166 for assembled MSII unit)

[TC]

I'm not sure how much the new Holley EFI controllers are, but they all to the Self Learn deal and the higher end ones even allow you to alter the settings to your liking........So as I see it, you let the Self Learn do the base tune, then you go in and fine tune it to your liking.........

[dieselgeek]

I'm not sure how much the new Holley EFI controllers are, but they all to the Self Learn deal and the higher end ones even allow you to alter the settings to your liking........So as I see it, you let the Self Learn do the base tune, then you go in and fine tune it to your liking.........

I hope that some day you actually do some form of EFI tuning so that you figure out "self learning" is an absolute waste of time and money - and nothing more than a marketing ploy to attract dummies.

[mike343sharpstick]

Those are cool (Edit: at least from what I've read anyway?), and that was my original plan.
However, the going rate for a nice self-tuning TBI/ECU package is about $2,000. The FAST EZ/Efi costs that much, and I suspect the Holley will too.
Still double the MSII option and MSII has the ability to grow to a more robust solution.

[dieselgeek]

Those are cool, and that was my original plan.
However, the going rate for a nice self-tuning TBI/ECU package is about $2,000. The FAST EZ/Efi costs that much, and I suspect the Holley will too.
Still double the MSII option and MSII has the ability to grow to a more robust solution.

A little known secret: the Self Tuning options for Megasquirt *absolutely* blow the doors off the current "Self Tuning" options available on the commercial market.

The issue is, once you get the EFI running and figure out that the tuning part takes mere minutes, it no longer becomes important that the system can tune itself.

[SuperBuickGuy]

So the swapped v6 will have two turbos as well as the buick 455?

For the buick, I vote MS2. MS1 is getting old, there's probably better support for MS2 these days. I think it's a $60 upgrade from the MS1 to the MS2 (just a CPU chip swap, very simple). And then it's a few hundred when you go from MS2 to MS3, and yes you can do these upgrades incrementally. I think you're gonna want at least the MS2 though... feature envy is a bitch! :-)

Back to the CTS engine in the Fiat Spyder: first, I'd suggest ONE turbo and not two. Save yourself a heluva lot of money, and the "twins spool faster" argument is lame and inaccurate anyways. You likely don't need or want the VVT when you have boost (a few hp down on the top end? set the boost higher then!), but if you did, it's still a difficult toss up between stock GM computer and MS. I know the HPT stuff doesn't have nearly as many options for the v6 engines as they do for the v8s (someone correct me if that changed in the last 8-12 months please).

Meanwhile, for whatever reason, I've gotten a steady stream of high power LS customers fed up with their HPT and EFILive tunejobs by reputable shops... all of them are 1200+whp and keep killing motors on stock computers. I'm thinking the "right guy" can make it work, but HPT/EFILive is NOT easy stuff - it's more complicated than megasquirt by a lot, but gives you access to fewer features - about all you DO get from the stock computer is a few million dollars worth of drivability tuning (nice stuff!) and a (theoretically) easier wiring/installation job.

Yes, both are twin, but for completely different reasons.

For the Spider, in retrospect I should have gone single - it'd have been easier. Also, twin turbos give you better control of the boost. Most importantly, I already have the turbos, and the headers are half built - so while it may not be optimal, it's going to be what I'm running

For the Buick, when the rpms are done at 5200 rpm - you need faster spooling. Originally I was going to buy take-off diesel turbos; but the ones I have now simply cost less.

I bought the HPTuner for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone: 1) I needed to check codes on my GTO, reset the mph limiter, and be able to change as needed its STOCK tune; 2) I wanted to see how GM did a good tune. Note: there are no power adders, none. Note that it costs about the same dollars as a tuner, but is far more flexible.

Now - the bonuses I can turn off the VAT (quite easily), and get the Spider running with the software without having to buy any additional items (or credits).... but it wasn't the reason I bought. I fully expect that once this little beastie is running, there will be more work in developing its potential (read upgrades).... however, my philosophy is running what I got rather than what I wish I had or what is perfect. I wait for perfect and I'll never get it done; and even if I get it done - it'll get take away from me because I'm not perfect.

[dieselgeek]

Yes, both are twin, but for completely different reasons.

For the Spider, in retrospect I should have gone single - it'd have been easier. Also, twin turbos give you better control of the boost. Most importantly, I already have the turbos, and the headers are half built - so while it may not be optimal, it's going to be what I'm running

I don't believe the "better control of boost" - I'll argue you get LESS control of boost because you are managing two different compressors. I'd *seriously* consider changing your plan - even if it'salready in action - because, besides the ridiculous cost of TWO wastegates, TWO blowoff valves, you have a ton of extra weight - a ton of extra piping - therefore a ton more underhood heat to melt stuff - twins are just not worth it unless you can't find a single big enough for the power goal. Trust me on this.

For the Buick, when the rpms are done at 5200 rpm - you need faster spooling. Originally I was going to buy take-off diesel turbos; but the ones I have now simply cost less.

We've proven time and again that a single spools just as fast as twins. It's an old turbo wivestale that suggests two small ones are better than one medium or large one - physics and most important, practice, do not support it. I suggest a reconsider here as well - save yourself the money and cut the hassle factor in half...

I bought the HPTuner for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone: 1) I needed to check codes on my GTO, reset the mph limiter, and be able to change as needed its STOCK tune; 2) I wanted to see how GM did a good tune. Note: there are no power adders, none. Note that it costs about the same dollars as a tuner, but is far more flexible.

Now - the bonuses I can turn off the VAT (quite easily), and get the Spider running with the software without having to buy any additional items (or credits).... but it wasn't the reason I bought. I fully expect that once this little beastie is running, there will be more work in developing its potential (read upgrades).... however, my philosophy is running what I got rather than what I wish I had or what is perfect. I wait for perfect and I'll never get it done; and even if I get it done - it'll get take away from me because I'm not perfect.

All that part seems fine. I have no bones against HPT or EFILive for streetable applications or minor mods. I am however, willing to bet big that the computer on the existing CTS motor isn't boost-capable, and I'd doubt any tuner that claims this can happen. No way - The General's days of throwing in excess ANYTHING, especially engine managemenr went out with the 1960s. Ford not so much but, I would expect a bit of a challenge getting that engine to run properly with turbos and stock computer. It's going to take someone a decent tuning effort whether it's with the GM computer or a standalone system. I think the VVT thing is probably not going to be any kind of concern with turbos, too. but that's just my guess based on seeing many other swaps.

I did read the CTS Spyder thread so I am up to speed on the project now. Pretty cool!