EFI or Carb why not both ?

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Thanks Geek! I have been doing a little bit of reading up on the 2.3t.
Someday I will get to play with one. Hopefully its in a SVO ;D

our EMC dyno man, John Beck, is putting a turbo-4 in an old Ranchero which weighs a lot less than a Foxbody mustang. The ultimate swap!! Get yourself a beater and start playing around - it's a good way to get your feet wet and it makes you feel good to accomplish something IMO.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

The AFR tells you what it did, and if you tune to that under extreme cases its to late.

Remember yesterday is old news we are on today and by the time its in Print, its stone age stuff

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

In all honesty I wish I could share even with TC what we're doing on the Engine Masters project. I almost hate this project for it's requirements of secrecy (we've found other teams who are tracking my every post on EVERY forum I am on, including music/recording and lawn & garden forums - they TOLD me about it last year!).

Bottom line is, after this October I will do a complete write up and share what we learned. I can't stand secrets, they drive me nuts, but if we want a chance to win this thing then that's how it has to be.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

I have a Pizza for you! I give all my stuff up to you its not fair Keeping Secret Squirrel stuff.

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

yeah, I know, sucks, and it's not like it's ALL rocket science but I can't have people knowing what approach I take is all. We are trying our hardest with what little budget and resources we have. that is all.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

After reading TC's interview quote, this is the conclusion I've come to.

The EZ-EFI needs to know a target AFR, with out a dyno or a few runs down the drag strip for some mph's, you aren't going to know the ideal AFR the moment you bolt it on the engine, UNLESS you just dyno tuned it with something else (carb, etc) and already know the ideal AFR target and tell it, then of course it'll magically make the same number almost right off the bat. First run to see where the AFR is, second run to put it where it's ideal.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Mark: You've begun to over think things. Which isn't a bad thing, but its leading you into directions that you don't need to go on a first install.

Size your injectors based on the max HP you wish to achieve. An excellent calculator for that is located here:

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

Set the fuel pressure at the injector manufacturers' recommendation. The industry standard seems to be 43.5 psi, but I've seen injectors rated using other numbers. If you intend to have forced induction, use an adjustable boost-referenced fuel pressure regulator that maintains the differential pressure throughout the rpm range. Usually its a 1:1 ratio.

Size your pump and lines to meet the volume and pressure needs of the injectors/engine. Be careful to observe the pressure curves and voltage curves of the pump, all pumps that I'm aware of advertise their capacity based on a "free-flow" standard. This is not what occurs in the working environment. As pressure goes up, pump performance drops dramatically. As voltage drops, pump performance drops dramatically.

If you intend to ever run E85, or Methanol, the sizing requirements are significantly higher.

thanks, not really over thinking things, as my first install will be very basic.. just thinking out loud to gain info. that would help down the road..
the first one will be a msII
and on an engine that if it goes lean and melt stuff it won't matter, wait maybe I need a ford.. anyways..
sometimes know'n to much can get you in trouble and I understand that.. . and the first try will K.I.S.S.
THANKS AGAIN

Using my Skylark as an example. I sized my injectors right at fringe of what I wanted for horsepower, or roughly 85% duty cycle at 450 horsepower at 43psi (rpm doesn't really matter as 450HP at 2,000rpm should require the same amount of fuel as 450HP at 8,000rpm if engine efficiencies are the same. Quiet Squirrel!). I'm at a very real possibility of making over 500HP by year's end, which could exceed my injectors capabilities. However if I run into that scenerio I'll bump the fuel pressure to 60psi, then hope I don't run out of fuel pump and still have enough injector!

[BangShiftChad]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

yeah, I know, sucks, and it's not like it's ALL rocket science but I can't have people knowing what approach I take is all. We are trying our hardest with what little budget and resources we have. that is all.

I feel privileged to know a few tidbits on the Engine Masters project, but I too have been sworn to secrecy. It's a cool project, and WAAAYYYYY cool group of people involved. I have a good feeling about this year for them.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Oh Great, even Chad knows, everyone but me huh?

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Oh Great, even Chad knows, everyone but me huh?

My wedding party is privvy to all the good info. lol.

[CDMBill]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

I went through this with a buddy who bought the Mass-Flo kit for a 392 SBF stroker motor. It worked as advertised in one sense but it was always fat at idle and the accel tuning was very spotty as that initial moment when you mat the throttle and the accelerates very quickly, e.g. first gear or worse wheel spin happens faster than the inputs to the sensors can cope.

My experience is limited but when we returned to DW '07 with the EFI conversion done but just barely, we had done dyno pulls with the stick shift in the car and then swapped in the AOD for the event. The first pass was an 11.40 AAUUUGH. With tuning chassis adjustments, and even taking off the mufflers we ended up at 10.48 and consistent 10.50's after a full day of work at the test and tune. Much of the improvement was from the EFI equivalent of accelerator pump tuning which happens at light speed compared to changing PVCR's, pump cams, pump levers, pump size and squirter size. This in addition to the equivalent of main jets, air bleeds, emulsion well jets, booster size and type. Oh and the throttle body is 2200 CFM.

Pulse width at idle is vanishingly small with the 96# injectors, but they are sized for 900 HP N/A and another 300 HP dry N20. haven't tuned for that yet. The RCI injectors are tested and match and setup for 43.5 PSI.

I look forward to reading about someone trying a carb EFI mix, I think it would be better with Webers and efi on an IR manifold but I really have no idea about the sophistication of wet flow and reversion dynamics needed to make it all work. It won't be me.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Oh Great, even Chad knows, everyone but me huh?

My wedding party is privvy to all the good info. lol.

I knew I should of gone! :D

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Yeah, My Invitation to that must have got lost in the Mail. :'(

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

Yeah, My Invitation to that must have got lost in the Mail. :'(

You worry about invitations ??? ;D

[TC]

Re: EFI or Carb why not both ?

I went through this with a buddy who bought the Mass-Flo kit for a 392 SBF stroker motor. It worked as advertised in one sense but it was always fat at idle and the accel tuning was very spotty as that initial moment when you mat the throttle and the accelerates very quickly, e.g. first gear or worse wheel spin happens faster than the inputs to the sensors can cope.

The EZ EFI has an adjustment for that.......