Cooling

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Cooling

As far as electric water pumps go, it seems that anyone with some hp that the pumps are pushing the coolant through the motor way too fast and not allowing the coolant to cool as it is going in the rad.

As far as mixing coolants go there shouldn't be any reason why you cant mix them.

Ok, I may have to be that guy, but exactly how confident are you in both these statements? Because from what I've known from cooling systems (and physics) in general, increase flow will always remove more heat. There is a guy on here that does commercial cooling systems that said the only hang up is if there is cavatation, since bubbles don't cool stuff very effectively. But more air flow and more coolant flow always removes more energy from the system.

As for the coolants, doesn't the conventional ethylene glycol break down the dex-cool into acids more quickly than it does on it's own? I was also under the impression mixing the two caused a precipitation reaction, but I can't recall that clearly so I could be wrong on that one too.

[Metal Storm]

Re: Cooling

i hope to install my heat exchanger for my roots 8-71 that has an IAT of 270* before the A/W intercooler and 130*IAT after.i dont have a water temp at this time but use j thermo couples for the IAT and EGT and will also be for water.the air after being cooled makes about 1,000 hp.the pump i have [dempco 150 gph at 50 psi max] for the I/C water and flows about 1gal in 3 sec so maybe the flow will be too fast for the exchanger so i could split the outlet from the I/C to slow the rate and still get the best I/C effeciency.blowershop A/W 4"wX3"hx14"L
edit: the exhannger i have is a yamaha R1 rad 12x13x1" thick with 1"tubes 3/4" hose for all going to a 5gal cell with 6gal total capacity.

[88 Vert Stang Dan]

Re: Cooling

What i can think of is that the commercial vehicles for them to have coolant travel quickly through them is they aren't making the horsepower that a person with a need for a high hp radiator is making. 9 times out of 10 our tech calls are mostly people who in theory think having a high speed pump is going to make it run cooler. But like i said before that is not always the case.


I would have to do more research on the precipitaion of the two mixed coolants

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Cooling

What i can think of is that the commercial vehicles for them to have coolant travel quickly through them is they aren't making the horsepower that a person with a need for a high hp radiator is making.

I completely disagree with this. Most commercial engines are making a sustained 600, 800, 1200+HP climbing hills. And a rig pulling 80,000lbs is going to be kicking out a ton more HP (and making more heat) cruising down a highway than even a 3 ton car/truck. If a person is having problems cooling with a high flow water pump, it means they are not getting enough air through the radiator to match the water flow. Means fans, shrouds or air speed are under performing compared to the water pump, IMO. I guess it's choose your limitations; water flow or air flow(which is related to radiator surface area).

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Cooling

What i can think of is that the commercial vehicles for them to have coolant travel quickly through them is they aren't making the horsepower that a person with a need for a high hp radiator is making.

I completely disagree with this. Most commercial engines are making a sustained 600, 800, 1200+HP climbing hills. And a rig pulling 80,000lbs is going to be kicking out a ton more HP (and making more heat) cruising down a highway than even a 3 ton car/truck. If a person is having problems cooling with a high flow water pump, it means they are not getting enough air through the radiator to match the water flow. Means fans, shrouds or air speed are under performing compared to the water pump, IMO. I guess it's choose your limitations; water flow or air flow(which is related to radiator surface area).

I'm going to have to say that the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle. The coolant moving too fast will not pickup as much heat since it has too short of a dwell in the location needing the transfer. Newton's law of cooling is time dependent.
However too slow can bring the water to a boil or put too much heat into the coolant at the front of the cooling path through the engine and there isn't enough thermal capacity and with your delta-T (as in temp) between materials going down, the transfer rate goes down too.

Commercial Engines do put a lot of heat into the system but generally suffer from low air flow over the radiator so you need a really big one with a big fan. As far as the coolant velocity through the engine on a commercial platform, can't really say but I'd wager that it's a large volume inside the engine and a high capacity pump to keep the effective replacement (as a percentage of total volume) rate similar to a passenger engine.

[min301]

Re: Cooling

I would have to do more research on the precipitaion of the two mixed coolants

I can tell you, mixing the two can cause gelling.
Dex-Cool is ok, as long as it's not left in too long,
much like regular green coolant.

I wouldn't mix em, definitely flush the cooling system before making the switch.

[CDMBill]

Re: Cooling

As to the GPM question, I have one data point form my particular combination. Currently I have 582" BBF that makes around 840 as installed in the car according to several ET and MPH/weight based calculators. I run a CSI 55 GPH pump through an ancient Howe dual 1" core aluminum radiator, I have a single large Lincoln Mark VIII fan which reputedly pulls 4300CFM. I use distilled water with Zerex Supercoolant only: no hard freezes here in my part of SoCal.

I have not run a thermostat as the electronic control of the pump and fans controls temp range. I originally used a restrictor, basically a big washer with a 1" hole in its place and found that thermal recovery was pretty slow, from a high speed pull or in lanes after a drag strip pass, Removing the restrictor allowed the temp to recover back much more quickly both in on road driving and sitting in lanes running the pump and fan off the battery. I also that in a road course situation the temps built quite a bit quicker and would not recover at all with the restrictor so I have given up on that approach.

I need more heat rejection capacity as the old Howe will not keep up with hot road course laps in warm weather beyond about 70* ambient which is why I am looking at a Be Cool dual pass unit. I also run a large oil cooler and oil temps track with coolant temps, low 200's.

No two cars are the same, but I simply haven't seen the to fast/too much water flow issue with my current pump set up. I note that high performance mechanical water pumps supposedly flow more than twice what my electric does at engine speeds above 4000 RPM.

[88 Vert Stang Dan]

Re: Cooling

Dual pass radiators are designed for high rpm vehicles. Electrice pumps if you are running one on a dual pass require alittle tailoring the water speed, but electric pumps usually dont require restrictor plates however, mechanical pumps do in a high rpm vehicle.

[moparmaniac07]

Re: Cooling

What i can think of is that the commercial vehicles for them to have coolant travel quickly through them is they aren't making the horsepower that a person with a need for a high hp radiator is making.

I completely disagree with this. Most commercial engines are making a sustained 600, 800, 1200+HP climbing hills. And a rig pulling 80,000lbs is going to be kicking out a ton more HP (and making more heat) cruising down a highway than even a 3 ton car/truck. If a person is having problems cooling with a high flow water pump, it means they are not getting enough air through the radiator to match the water flow. Means fans, shrouds or air speed are under performing compared to the water pump, IMO. I guess it's choose your limitations; water flow or air flow(which is related to radiator surface area).

I'm going to have to say that the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle. The coolant moving too fast will not pickup as much heat since it has too short of a dwell in the location needing the transfer. Newton's law of cooling is time dependent.
However too slow can bring the water to a boil or put too much heat into the coolant at the front of the cooling path through the engine and there isn't enough thermal capacity and with your delta-T (as in temp) between materials going down, the transfer rate goes down too.

Commercial Engines do put a lot of heat into the system but generally suffer from low air flow over the radiator so you need a really big one with a big fan. As far as the coolant velocity through the engine on a commercial platform, can't really say but I'd wager that it's a large volume inside the engine and a high capacity pump to keep the effective replacement (as a percentage of total volume) rate similar to a passenger engine.

That's my thought on it too. If the coolant flows too fast, it won't pick up much heat, and mixing coolants caused some kind of chemical reaction that could be bad for the engine.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Cooling

I will be moving up to a 30 lbs system this year, Pressure gentlemen Pressure

[Dignlif]

Re: Cooling

I ran the CSI pump on my 347 and had issues driving on the road in summer with it running hot. It would slowly creep up to 205 and then never look back, steadily climbing; I'd shut it down when it was cresting 210. This was while using both nothing or the Moroso restrictors in the thermostat housing. It would cool down below 170 in minutes of sitting in the shade running the fan and water pump on battery though.

I then decided to try using a thermostat with the CSI pump but it kept blowing the bottom hose off. After talking to a few guys I drilled 3 x 9/64" holes in the flat surround of the 180 thermostat as a bit of a bypass and I never had another issue on the road or hot lapping it at the track for test/tune. (or DW09 for that matter) We'll see how this setup works on the new stroker as I plan to transfer it over.

[CDMBill]

Re: Cooling

I will be moving up to a 30 lbs system this year, Pressure gentlemen Pressure

Intake manifold gaskets would seem to be the potential weak point at 30 PSI, and perhaps the radiator hoses? Not having seen your manifold, does it still have conventional SBC coolant cross overs or are you able go in and out of the block/heads directly? I pull ware from the front and the back of the heads following some information I picked up form Kasse regarding BBF pump gas motors.

I'm considering changing to a radiator mounted water pump mostly for packaging reasons but I hadn't thought of going higher than the 16 PSI cap I already run. More to read up on I suppose.

[TC]

Re: Cooling

I ran the CSI pump on my 347 and had issues driving on the road in summer with it running hot. It would slowly creep up to 205 and then never look back, steadily climbing; I'd shut it down when it was cresting 210. This was while using both nothing or the Moroso restrictors in the thermostat housing. It would cool down below 170 in minutes of sitting in the shade running the fan and water pump on battery though.

I then decided to try using a thermostat with the CSI pump but it kept blowing the bottom hose off. After talking to a few guys I drilled 3 x 9/64" holes in the flat surround of the 180 thermostat as a bit of a bypass and I never had another issue on the road or hot lapping it at the track for test/tune. (or DW09 for that matter) We'll see how this setup works on the new stroker as I plan to transfer it over.

How big of a radiator do you have??

[Barry Donovan]

Re: Cooling

What i can think of is that the commercial vehicles for them to have coolant travel quickly through them is they aren't making the horsepower that a person with a need for a high hp radiator is making.

I completely disagree with this. Most commercial engines are making a sustained 600, 800, 1200+HP climbing hills. And a rig pulling 80,000lbs is going to be kicking out a ton more HP (and making more heat) cruising down a highway than even a 3 ton car/truck. If a person is having problems cooling with a high flow water pump, it means they are not getting enough air through the radiator to match the water flow. Means fans, shrouds or air speed are under performing compared to the water pump, IMO. I guess it's choose your limitations; water flow or air flow(which is related to radiator surface area).

if you need high flow, volume is not enough at the radiator..

at the other end of the spectrum, I have a 90hp boxer that needs a two row radiator..simply making the 1970s constipation fire. it goes as far as lightning strikes .Strong boxers stay cool regardless- physics of static can't leave enough sometimes (that is the "other" heat), on any other engine this spells disaster.

I got the pump high flowing, and it is still crazy. adding rows/volume slow it down.

high flow is like adding a screaming ricer to a diesel. Don't forget the oversized wing. ;)

[88 Vert Stang Dan]

Re: Cooling

Larger water pump pulley would help slow it down