Electric water pumps and open track events

[CDMBill]

I have a CSR 55 GPH electric water pump on a 460 stroker motor in a 71 Mustang, Howe aluminum radiator, Mark VIII fan, Earl's oil cooler. It runs a solid 170-190 degrees in traffic, cruising and at the drags in any weather, but I'd like to try some open track days, maybe even the Silver State Classic (90 miles at high speed) and, ultimately Maxton or other standing mile.

Does anyone here have experience with these events and running an electric water pump? I'm concerned that there isn't enough water flow at sustained WOT or at least a lot of accel/deccel around a road course to keep the engines temps at a safe operating range.

What do the CJTV experts recommend?

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

What does the temp do at the strip? I would think the water flow would be enough if the Rad. is cooling the water down. The radiator sets the max temp of a motor the thermostat sets the min. My motor uses a Winston cup water pump that slows the water flow down at high rpm so it has a chance to cool at high rpm.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

What does the temp do at the strip? I would think the water flow would be enough if the Rad. is cooling the water down. The radiator sets the max temp of a motor the thermostat sets the min. My motor uses a Winston cup water pump that slows the water flow down at high rpm so it has a chance to cool at high rpm.

Ever done an open track day? Think 1/4 mile passes back to back with no cooldown time.


At bonneville, our studebaker's electric water pump couldn't cut it but switching to a belt driven pump made a huge difference. WHo knows if that was similar to Bill's issue or not.


The rest of my open track day experience is on cars that already had a belt driven pump. One thing about a track day, you'll find out QUICKLY what parts of the car can't stand up to abuse. Brakes, suspension, oil sump/pickup issues with high cornering loads, tires, etc.

Places like Willow Springs Big course are fast so you get plenty of air through the radiator, but places like Streets of Willow or Ontario, which are tight and not too fast, will test the cooling system a lot more.

Here's a video of the kind of thrashing your car goes through:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zxGMfJylGQQ

The guy driving is Vincent Wong. He's a VERY good driver, in his little gutted Prelude that puts a whopping 160hp to the wheels, he's run as fast as 1:34 at Willow Springs large course. To put that into context, the "baddest" open track vettes in attendance were cutting 1:50's.

-scott

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

If as Bills posts, is a lot of high speed stuff, it should cool the rad well, and the pump will just circulate it. If its a lot of twists and turns slow speed you may have issues with Rad cooling. There is a lot of low flow electic pumps that can cause a lot of problems too, I wonder how much the pump you are talking about flows?

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

It depends on what sort of water pump you're running; a lot of the electric belt driven pumps used a motor intended for some other application that didn't have bearings for a side load, so the motors wear out pretty quickly.

[CDMBill]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Thanks for the responses guys. The CSR I have is a driect replacement for the belt driven pump and is supposed to deliver a flat 55 GPH although its easy to see how this could vary due to restrictions in the block, heads, plumbing etc. Its not clear waht conventional engine drven pumps deliver although I'm sure it is a rising flow rate with rpm to a certain point at least.

I managed a True Street deal last Fall at about 85 degrees ambient with no issues but I think the track day or Silver State would be much worse. I only see about a 2-3 degree rise during a quarter mile pass so the standing mile should't be a huge issue espacially with the air flow being so high. That Nascar water pump deal sounds like a great solution but I won't find one those to fit a big block ford.

I was thinkin about some sort of external electric pump with greater capacity and perhaps variable speed. Any one seen anything like that? I have a Weiand conventional pump I could put back on if I had to but I like the low speed effectiveness and cool down capability the all electric setup has. I'm doing an auto cross in a couple weeks and that may be an early test case

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

I don't know if he takes technical questions, but Miles Cook from Mustang Monthly runs a Mustang in the Silver State regularly (met him up here a few times then ran across him at the Car Junkie Open House) he would probably have a few thoughts on cooling for the Silver State.

[yellomalibu]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

I'm not sure which of these water pumps they refer to when they say "19 gallons per minute", but that's a helluva lot more than 55 gallons per hour ... cross the t, carry the 1... that's 1140 gallons per hour. If flow is a problem with your current water pump, this ought to fix it (I would think, anyway).

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=29300

[CDMBill]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Good catch, my bad for mis-quoting, the CSR is spec'd at 55 GPM not GPH. Still, by way of example an Edelbrock circle track pump for a SBC shows 29 GPM at 2000 rpm rising to 74 GPM at 5000, their SBF 32 and 80 respectively. So maybe I'm worried about nothing but I'd like that high flow at low speed the electric provides with a rising curve for higher rpm. Nothing like some real world running to find out.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

I've heard of people using some sort of a motor control device to vary the pump speed but I'm sure it wears the motors out quicker since most electrical parts wear far faster at non steadystate operation.

[72_Ventura]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Seems like someone should make a waterpump with an electric motor that allows free-spin when it gets to a high enough RPM to pass the motor's effectiveness.
That way at slow speeds you could have the 55 GPM and get the 74-80 at speed. Doesn't seem like it'd be hard to design, and since you wouldn't have to change the current to the motor, it shouldn't wear it out any quicker.
Do they already have something like this?

[dieselgeek]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Bill, did you ever work on the fuel sump issue we ran into on Drag Week? I figure with your cars braking ability, uncovering the pickup in the tank might become an issue.

[CDMBill]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Uh, no. At Bakersfield I really laid into the brakes at the end of the1/4 mile to finish off the rotor bedding in process on the new brakes. One the few places you can do 130-almost zero hard stops. On the second pass I had that fuel starvation issue again, with around 2/3s of a tank in it. I'm either going to have to redo the stock tank w/ welded home made sump I have now or go to a fuel cell. The sump is typical drag race stuff located at the back of the tank I should have thought that through a bit more.

One question I have the return line from the regulator going back into the top of the tank. this was to avoid pushing the fuel column back against the mass of gas in the tank. I read some where recently that with an EFI setup the return should be fully submerged. Is that true? It would be easy to fix as the return is a tube connected to a welded in place AN 10 fitting at the original pick up tube location and is replaceable/bendable. Is that true?

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

What about a Rock Valley Antique custom stainless tank with internal baffling and run a TBI low pressure pump?

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Electric water pumps and open track events

Bill, Doc and I both run our returns to the bottom, so they dont make bubbles in the fuel. My 1000 bypasses a lot, to get the PSI down for the carb and would turn it to foam ;) it keeps the fuel "Cleaner" for the pump.