Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

[horsewidower]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

With the factory body styles, expect those "factory-based" engines to be limited to 500 hp to reduce areo problems at high speeds.

The aero on a new Camaro, Mustang or Charger/Challenger has to suck. Good point.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

I suggest that you are underestimating the amount of prep needed to creat a competent unibody. It is far easier to lay some tubes and drape a body over it than it is to seam weld, hole drill and lay tube in an existing body shell.

I'm with Bob on this one, but I also agree that zillion buck NASCAR teams aren't Bob and me wrenching on our junk at home.

[38P]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

Speedy, I can only speak from my experience. Its from my experience that I form my opinion about the relative cost of unibody and tube framed racecars. Clearly from the standpoint of a NASCAR super team perspective, its probably "6 of one, half-dozen of another."

I suggest that you are underestimating the amount of prep needed to creat a competent unibody. It is far easier to lay some tubes and drape a body over it than it is to seam weld, hole drill and lay tube in an existing body shell.

But, I'm not a NASCAR team.

From the point of a sportsman team (e.g. local dirt track), you're probably right. It's a lot cheaper to build an IMCA modified or a Late Model than to "build a ship in a bottle" production-based stock car. But we're talking about big-time racing with huge 100+mechanic teams. The extra costs would be worth it.

Besides, back in the 1960s, when groups of guys operating out of gas stations and families still fielded stock cars, they were able to do the "ship in the bottle" thing with production cars on budgets far less than a modern Cup team. Of course the cages were much simpler then, but even with the added complexity of the modern safety system, I can't see it as being cost prohibitive.

Besides, wouldn't the factories get involved if the rules encouraged a modified production NASCAR. If Ford and Porsche build cars for Grand-Am and ALMS, why wouldn't OEMs build for NASCAR under the right rules package?

[BBR]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

I've posted this before.....

How to fix NASCAR in three easy steps.

1. Race the 'performance car' of the make. Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, uh....Solara?

2. Require the car builders to *start* with a FACTORY floorpan and sheet metal. Bad aero? Get the mfg's to fix it or MAKE MORE POWER.

3. Require FACTORY blocks and heads. Aluminum, cast iron, OHV, SOHC OK, but no DOHC. 4.8L MAXIMUM displacement. Every company has a factory engine that fits in that category. The current motor programs, while interesting and powerful, are a stupid waste of money.

Seems like a super dumb move to me to have a performance vehicle in your lineup, and have teams racing the 4 door grocery getter vehicle (albeit in name only) every weekend.

[38P]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

There's got to be DOHC allowed or it's not "relevant" to current production. According to DeLorenzo, "relevance" and too many empty grandstands are what's driving the change.

We should also note that the Grand Touring Camaro GT-R which apparently opened the eyes of Brian France is bascially a tube frame car with a molded composite roughly production dimension body. That's not exactly a stock car, but it looks a lot closer on TV than the rolling common template abortion that NASCAR currently runs.

What's probably puzzling to the NASCAR honchos is that Grand-Am's COT (the almost as hideous "Daytona Prototype") has been relatively successful. But the difference is that nobody has ever expected any "stock" in prototype racing. Moreover, the engines in DP are "relevant" to production cars (unlike the purpose-built, non-stock, NASCAR-spec pushrod Cup engines).

[horsewidower]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

Besides, wouldn't the factories get involved if the rules encouraged a modified production NASCAR. If Ford and Porsche build cars for Grand-Am and ALMS, why wouldn't OEMs build for NASCAR under the right rules package?

Now there's a mind blowing thought. Wow.

Go down to your authorized Ford or Chevy dealer, bring your 6 figure wallet and buy a NASCAR approved racer.

I like it!!

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

I say let them run any engine the manufacturer produces for that car in Naturally aspirated form (to limit HP). I say go ahead and let Ford run a DOHC engine (mod or coyote) and see if the LS has to keep up, or the bigger displacement LS has no problem. Considering I don't see any V-8 DOHC engines revving any higher than the push rod variety, I'll call it a push. Now if every team jumps to Ford (or yota, or dodge, etc) because the DOHC advantage, well then, GM better step up to the plate and make a competative engine from the factory.

I say give them camshafts, headers and exhaust then their own inhouse ign/fuel tune and put them on the track. I'm on the fence about intake manifolds and heads. Let them massage factory pieces, but essentially leave them OEM. I'm giving them cam, headers, exhaust and tune because those are the primary things that effect emissions and these guys are racing not sitting on a LA freeway, so they shouldn't be restricted to EPA stuff......Then again that would be kind of cool, win the race, roll over victory lane and to the chassis dyno for a smog test, hehe.

[BBR]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

......black flagged for being a gross emitter.

[realsteelfreak]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

Since NASCAR owns GrandAM ,its good to see them taking notes from them and bringing those ideas to the Cup series.
While Speedzter and I have had our disagreements, I also believe once past the initial design and engineering, overall cost of the car would be safer and cheaper.

[BBR]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

There's got to be DOHC allowed or it's not "relevant" to current production.

I was trying to be fair to GM lol.

[Hemidog]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

A good thing. The sooner they get back to production looking bodies the better.

Now to get Pro Stock and Funny Car to follow. Looking at some of the older Funny Cars from the 60s and 70s and sure they were stretched and altered but at least they were identifiable as Mustangs, Camaros, etc. Sure production-like bodies will be slower but isn't that what the NHRA wants? And at least we'll be able to identify and support the makes and models we love.
The Aussie Supercars use factory-like panels over a fabricated race car chassis and look a lot more like their production counterparts than Nascars today.

[38P]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

"Now that's thinkin' with your dipstick," Hemidog!

Of course we Bangshifters should want ALL the racing formulas and specs as close to production as possible to reap the benefits of techological transfers (i.e. if the factories have to market what they race and race what they market, they'll undoubtedly cook up a lot more trick stuff that we can use on our street/strip vehicles . . . and they'll build tricker production cars for homologation purposes).

I say give them camshafts, headers and exhaust then their own inhouse ign/fuel tune and put them on the track. I'm on the fence about intake manifolds and heads. Let them massage factory pieces, but essentially leave them OEM. I'm giving them cam, headers, exhaust and tune because those are the primary things that effect emissions and these guys are racing not sitting on a LA freeway, so they shouldn't be restricted to EPA stuff......Then again that would be kind of cool, win the race, roll over victory lane and to the chassis dyno for a smog test, hehe.

As much as I hate EPA/CARB meddling in our automotive liberty and worry about green nerds imposing an encyclopedia of regulations on motorsports, a series for EPA-legal stocks wouldn't be the worst thing I've ever seen in racing. I mean, don't the Germans have cat cons which can hold up on the Autobahn? And wouldn't that produce a bonanza of emissions-legal hop-up parts?

[realsteelfreak]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

"Now that's thinkin' with your dipstick," Hemidog!

Of course we Bangshifters should want ALL the racing formulas and specs as close to production as possible to reap the benefits of techological transfers (i.e. if the factories have to market what they race and race what they market, they'll undoubtedly cook up a lot more trick stuff that we can use on our street/strip vehicles . . . and they'll build tricker production cars for homologation purposes).

I say give them camshafts, headers and exhaust then their own inhouse ign/fuel tune and put them on the track. I'm on the fence about intake manifolds and heads. Let them massage factory pieces, but essentially leave them OEM. I'm giving them cam, headers, exhaust and tune because those are the primary things that effect emissions and these guys are racing not sitting on a LA freeway, so they shouldn't be restricted to EPA stuff......Then again that would be kind of cool, win the race, roll over victory lane and to the chassis dyno for a smog test, hehe.

As much as I hate EPA/CARB meddling in our automotive liberty and worry about green nerds imposing an encyclopedia of regulations on motorsports, a series for EPA-legal stocks wouldn't be the worst thing I've ever seen in racing. I mean, don't the Germans have cat cons which can hold up on the Autobahn? And wouldn't that produce a bonanza of emissions-legal hop-up parts?

And wouldn't that produce a bonanza of emissions-legal hop-up parts?
Didnt you go to SEMA? Was hot rod CARB approved parts not there this year ?

[mlcraven]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

The way I read Autoextremist, NASCAR is about to have a righteous heap of "shut the f*#k up and listen to what we have to say" imposed on it by the N American based auto companies, or else find that about $150M in indirect investment dries up. It seems (long overdue) change is definitely in the wind, and even if it ultimately isn't production bodies that can't be all bad.

Brian: many thanks for bringing Autoextremist to our attention; after BS.com it's now my fav auto site.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Autoextremist: NASCAR May Return to Production Bodies and Engines

putting a unit body style on a highbanked oval.. would be a deathwish... even with a roll bar..

Gee, who knew that all of those Mustang FR500Cs (http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/herocard1.asp) and Porsche 911s (more correctly, the 997 GT3 RS model, as configured for Grand-Am GT competition) hitting the highbanks at Daytona International Speedway last weekend were such "deathwishes?"

Of course DeLorenzo's hardly alone in condemnation of the awful COT. See e.g. http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Speedy...er-s-Goat.html

those street cars lap 100 mph slower than a sprint cupper , besides a cobalt will lap them
maybe you should buy a ticket and attend an actual race sometime

bore centers are too small - mod motor is a MOO motor