Which EFI controller?

[SuperBuickGuy]

would be "best" for the CTS Spider, and for the twin turbo 455.

I'm not an electronics guru, and while you guys are just awesome about helping - after about the 40th stupid question, I start to feel guilty asking.... thus, I don't want to dive into the deep end and solder something together (in the 80s I built a monitor board for my computer that surprisingly worked, but was the limit of my patience and ability)....

The Spider, will be started on its own computer.... but I already know it's not going to be a long-term solution....

well? what should a e-newbie choose?

[Stich496]

I get out my crystal ball and say d/g's gonna say the ms II & III come in a kit(not for you) and already built, for you..
I'm in same boat, hate ask'n 1000's of questions.. d/g's already got pissed at me a few time from asking the same thing.. because he already answered them.. but I didn't save the p.m.s and they got lost in the move.. and I don't "get" stuff from reading it, I need to do it or see it done.. then it all goes, ding ding ding in thy head and light bulbs go off.
good luck..

[Beagle]

I'm starting to think speed density and a decent tune is the way to go. I used to think MAF was the only way, which may have been true before tuners hit the state they are at. I'm not sure about the "self tuning" stuff available right now, but I'm sure we will see their proponents by the end of the day. I don't know if I would trust something to self tune at 3 bars... a f*up would be catastrophic, but I'm mistrustful. Misanthropic even.

The Megasquirt stuff can be bought in just about any stage of completion it seems. There didn't appear to be a lot of soldering even in kit form. The choice of OEM sensors is good, so roadside repairs aren't out of the question.

The OEM GM computer has big support from high dollar tuner boxes. Sorry you aren't closer because I would split one with you. The credits aren't all that pricey. The one thing I really like about the OEM box is availability and durability. They're pretty freaking rugged and you don't see many cold solder joints.

The downside of the OEM stuff is the credit thing - The VIN crap makes me kind of nutty. I think a new ECM will set you back a couple of credits, which is hokey. Between that and having to carry the single purpose tuner just in case your 'puter goes bloeey on the side of the road, it doesn't lend itself to sharing. Like Alton Brown, I don't like having to carry a single tasker. Even a ratchet can double as a hammer, pry bar, punch... you know what I mean.

I also wonder how close we are to tuning via phone. These new phones are unbelievably powerful. Tablets have more than enough to get the job done... and you can use them to watch movies and read Bangshift!

[TheSilverBuick]

As Mark says, you know what our default answer is, especially bang for the buck they are the most flexible. You can get a preassembed MS(I,II or III). Outside OEM and MS I don't know if the other major EFI companies (Holley, MoTEC, etc) do the VVT, but Scott may know.

[SuperBuickGuy]

I already have the tuning software/hardware from HPT; and enough credits to do both the GTO and the CTS. And I bought the software as a learning tool - to be able to see what/how GM did But I still just consider that an option - sometimes, when you try to save money by using what you already have, you end up spending twice as much. HPT has great customer support, but, other than changing something like a speed limiter, it's really easy to get lost in the features of the system.... I'm sure that someday, I'll be old hat at this - but at this point that dampness behind my ears is a waterfall.

Beags - there is an app for reading the codes and mild tuning for the iPhone.... I just saw it last night in my websurfing.

Randal, I'm reading the book by Mike Copeland and (while I'm only about 1/2 way through) it appears that the MS system can handle it - but I'm not sure which one because it's only been referenced in passing when he's talking about vtec stuff. I'm also fully confused as to what system does what (MSII, III, etc)

[Bob Holmes]

Well, let me give you my speech...(like you really need another one, right!)

As a guy who didn't want to do anything when it came to the ECU on the racecar (I spent 5 figures with "pros" who took my money and produced something that didn't work, one was a former Indy car mechanic of the year, another was a former IMSA GTP electronics and wiring "expert." I even checked their references!) its best that you spend the time to educate yourself and do it yourself.

The best way to do that is to understand what the community around you supports. Clearly, here at BS central, the MS derivatives are well supported. However, in your local community, you may find that its Big Stuff, or FAST, etc. For my Haltech, I had a number of shops simply refuse to deal with it, wanting me to change to their box of preference.

Like Mark, I do best when I can see someone do the work. If you're the same way, it would be best to find a group in your neck of the woods that use the same system.

The big issue is almost never the tuning, that is the fun part. The stuff that makes people bang their head against the wall is the debugging of the systems. Making certain that all the sensors are reading properly, clocking the cam and crank synchs properly, etc.
There is no substitute for just doing it.

We are changing all our cars over to the MS systems. They are inexpensive (the Haltech cost me over $2k, 6 years ago), have so much documentation that its daunting (I once called Oz about a problem with the Haltech and they told me to "fiddle with it.), and a large community of users.

Plus if you just get lost and frustrated, you can always find out what it costs to get a "Geek Tuned" solution by talking to DG. It would have saved me a ton of money.

[TheSilverBuick]

Like Mark, I do best when I can see someone do the work. If you're the same way, it would be best to find a group in your neck of the woods that use the same system.

I'm the exact same way. Notice I just jump into things? Because I know all the reading and question asking doesn't get me far, points me in the general direction, tells me rough limits of settings, but it doesn't stick well. I have to play and tamper with the settings. Learn the save and load feature and have at it.

If you are worried about blowing something up by a setting, just look up the setting, either in google or otherwise, and find a rough guide from others, there is a 90% chance there will be one there if there is a chance of critical engine damage. I don't do any testing at WOT until I'm happy with all the settings at less than 50% throttle. It's pretty tough to critically hurt an engine at low load from the fuel and spark side of things. Of course I don't know if the VVT stuff has enough adjustment to let a valve tag a piston if the settings wrong. Check that one!

Lastly. Don't fear the reaper!

[Bob Holmes]

My buddy Scott Courtney and I went to an EFI University class down in Temecula, CA. I'm not sure that we learned anything that we couldn't learn in the book, but again, watching someone else work with a system was worth the price of admission.

We decided to educate ourselves, at that point I'd been screwed too many times by the "experts."

[dieselgeek]

would be "best" for the CTS Spider, and for the twin turbo 455.
well? what should a e-newbie choose?

The Holley Dominator EFI box seems pretty promising, for $1600 they are feature packed. The tuning software is easy to use (although not as tuning friendly as Tuner Studio, the software that's used with MS variants), it can run LS coilpacks or distributors, all the CDI ignitions (MSD, Jacobs, etc). I don't know if their support is as good as FASTs, who you should consider if you want a live person on the phone to help answer questions. A few guys here have run them, I've tuned *one* but it was easy to figure out. Daryl White (revolutionary on here) and his buddy Shannon used one and are liking it better than the MS.

As always, Megasquirt rules for price:performance, especially the versions that, like Randal, run the "Extra" firmware - the operating system itself on the MS CPU. Lots of features, and there's not a problem you'll encounter that you can't find some online solution or workaround. plus for some people it's fun to tinker with custom/homemade EFI. You seem to have patience, consider trying a lower priced MS to start with and if you like it - keep upgrading (they are very modular). That way, worst case scenario you'd be out a few hundred bucks - less than HPTuners $$ for sure.

I also like VIPEC for a generic system. The rumor is that it was developed by a few ex-Motec employees. I've used only one but it was by far the most intuitive user interface, better than Tuner Studio, and it was easy to get going. That was on a 500ish hp turbo Subaru and I was able to make it run with OEM manners in one short sitting.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Nobody minds answering when you are actually in the middle of doing the work.

I need to go read your build thread, I'm not sure what a CTS Spider is?

[TheSilverBuick]

I need to go read your build thread, I'm not sure what a CTS Spider is?

It's an unholy union between a Fiat Spider and a Cadillac CTS engine.

[Stich496]

Well, let me give you my speech...(like you really need another one, right!)

As a guy who didn't want to do anything when it came to the ECU on the racecar (I spent 5 figures with "pros" who took my money and produced something that didn't work, one was a former Indy car mechanic of the year, another was a former IMSA GTP electronics and wiring "expert." I even checked their references!) its best that you spend the time to educate yourself and do it yourself.

The best way to do that is to understand what the community around you supports. Clearly, here at BS central, the MS derivatives are well supported. However, in your local community, you may find that its Big Stuff, or FAST, etc. For my Haltech, I had a number of shops simply refuse to deal with it, wanting me to change to their box of preference.

Like Mark, I do best when I can see someone do the work. If you're the same way, it would be best to find a group in your neck of the woods that use the same system.

The big issue is almost never the tuning, that is the fun part. The stuff that makes people bang their head against the wall is the debugging of the systems. Making certain that all the sensors are reading properly, clocking the cam and crank synchs properly, etc.
There is no substitute for just doing it.

We are changing all our cars over to the MS systems. They are inexpensive (the Haltech cost me over $2k, 6 years ago), have so much documentation that its daunting (I once called Oz about a problem with the Haltech and they told me to "fiddle with it.), and a large community of users.

Plus if you just get lost and frustrated, you can always find out what it costs to get a "Geek Tuned" solution by talking to DG. It would have saved me a ton of money.

with me it's not so much see'n someone else do it.. but reading it is like shooting a gun in a video game.. you get the idea, doing it in real life is totally different..
I can read and read about efi and the ms tech for days,, it helps.. but not as much as taking that box and wires bolting all the crap on, set'n it up. and getting it running and then play'n with everything that you can.. I'll get more out of that than rereading the mega manual for the 1000th time..
what held me back.. try'n it on a 12k 355 or all new parts 496.. learning by blowing hole in pistons/etc might be part of a learning curve.. and that fear and it's cost.. stopped any chance of try'n it.. well the 350 in the truck is nothing special. so if I screw up and melt it down. learning.. no great loss.. melting down a 12k engine.. not a good plan

[SuperBuickGuy]

with me it's not so much see'n someone else do it.. but reading it is like shooting a gun in a video game.. you get the idea, doing it in real life is totally different..
I can read and read about efi and the ms tech for days,, it helps.. but not as much as taking that box and wires bolting all the crap on, set'n it up. and getting it running and then play'n with everything that you can.. I'll get more out of that than rereading the mega manual for the 1000th time..
what held me back.. try'n it on a 12k 355 or all new parts 496.. learning by blowing hole in pistons/etc might be part of a learning curve.. and that fear and it's cost.. stopped any chance of try'n it.. well the 350 in the truck is nothing special. so if I screw up and melt it down. learning.. no great loss.. melting down a 12k engine.. not a good plan

yeah, but reading at least gets me to the questions that aren't quite so dumb. I agree that experience is the best teacher, but I'd rather it be someone else who's learning keeps me from learning melting down a 10k Buick motor.

If I said "I don't care if I melt the Cad motor" that'd be a lie only because it'd take me several hours to swap it out for another one...
and I'd rather not (or bounce a valve off the piston).

Okay, so a specific question - high impedance vs. low impedance injector. I've read the explanation but it make zero sense to me (I can't figure out why there'd be two different types - or another way, why doesn't MS III directly run a low impedance injector)?

[dieselgeek]

Why does everyone think they're going to "melt" their engines? You have about the same chance of doing that with EFI that you do with a carburetor. If you're using a wideband or even narrow band O2 sensor it's pretty obvious if you're about to hurt something. It's a lot easier to correct with EFI too - just go drive and either add or take away fuel at various points along the fuel map. That part is simple, I don't know anyone that ever tried their own EFI and melted something.

Stich, your problem is you don't know how it will go until you try it.

[TheSilverBuick]

Why does everyone think they're going to "melt" their engines?

That's what I'm wondering I have no fear now of starting a new engine on EFI, that's what I plan on doing with my OHC six.

Now the variable valve timing stuff, okay, I can see that as a concern if there is the possibility of valve piston interference, but any control system opens the possibility of letting that happen, and with any control system you probably should know the setting limits ahead of time.

iirc, high impedance injectors are the most common, type. The low impedance stuff is for very high flow rates. You should be able to make more than sufficient HP on high impedance injectors I'd think.

[CDMBill]

I get the doing it yourself part as well as I learn that way too. I did it in steps which helps with the money and builds understanding as you go along. Fuel is easier than spark in my experience, but Brian Rock did it the other way, he runs an EMS Pro for ignition and a Pro-Systems carb still (but not for long).

Pull up the wiring diagram for an MS-II or MS-III online. That is the first and far and away the hardest thing you have to deal with in my view. You can buy labeled harnesses which makes that very straight forward, just take your time and follow good termination practices. Before that go through your grounds and your charging system.

It is easier than you think going in and you can do a lot including data logging without having the EFI do anything. I'm doing that with an MS-III as work towards the conversion to full sequential from the MS-II. The data logging alone is worth the price of admission.

The fuel system is much simpler. I first converted to a return style set-up with the dominator and then the only change was the fuel rails and swapping to the EFI pressure range regulator. Same pump, filters and lines.