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MSI or MSII and holley projection 4 900 cfm T/B

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  • MSI or MSII and holley projection 4 900 cfm T/B

    Hello,,
    I'm looking into starting my EFI learning, using a Holley Projection 4 Throttle body that has 4 injectors. I bought this off ebay, the ecu was D.O.A. so looking at options..
    If I remember correctly they are 80 or 90 pound injectors..
    Will start with fuel only then add ign.. control later and then go MPEFI later on another vehicle..
    My question is will a MSII work with this throttle body.. and if so, would you have one injector driver run all 4 injectors ,or one driver per injector??
    This will be put on the tired 305 under the hood now to learn how to install and tune then moved on to a
    G.M. gen I 350 with 330 hp.. in a 3900-4000 lb vehicle.

    Is this a good idea??? or will putting it on a tired engine only fog my learning and play havoc when I install the new 350??

    Thanks for any help..
    Last edited by JamesMayberryIII; May 8, 2016, 06:21 AM.

  • #2
    Excellent plan! An MS2 should work perfectly with it. I believe the injectors are "low-impedance" so just be sure to set that accordingly when wired up. IIRC the throttle body on the Projection's are progressive, so the MS2 has two injector output's (and multiple injectors can be wired to each output), so you would wire one output to the front two injectors and the second to the second two injectors and stage the second set of injectors to come on when the rear throttle blades start to move. The two injector drivers can be fueled independently of each other so you'd just start ramping the second set up in flow after a certain TPS amount.

    For ignition, I'd start with a standard 4-pin HEI and get your tach signal from the distributor cap (run it through the VR circuitry). Then when you are ready for ignition control, zip or wire tie the mechanical advance into a fixed position, disconnect the vacuum hose to the vacuum advance, and run the tach and a ground wire to the pickup coil in the distributor. Then the MS2 Ignition Out wire to the ground side of the ignition coil (or to the points lead of an ignition box, like a 6AL). Then with the correct settings it'll control ignition timing.

    If you get a 3.0 or 3.57 MegaSquirt board, you can upgrade to a MS3/3X down the road if you feel you need/want the expansion. If you get a Microsquirt, it's MS2 software and wiring and pretty robust. The other thing is, if in the future you decide you want an MS3 or MSPro, you can use an old Microsquirt or MS2 on the 3.0/3.57 board to control an electric transmission. I'm about to go down this route for a 4L60e with a spare MS2 I have after upgrading to MS3/3x. So less waste after an upgrade so to speak.

    Any tuning you do/learn on the 305 will easily transfer over to the 350. Heck, when I first started my 250cid L6 engine, I used my Buick 455cid tune, just changed the "required fuel", injector size & number and firing order settings, and it fired right up and needed only a few small fuel adjustments from there to start nicely and free rev nicely to begin actual tuning. The hardest part will be dialing in the staged injectors if the throttle body is progressive. That would be one headache you won't have with multi-port injection. BUT it would be good experience to have if you end up staging a set of multi-port injectors for race gas, nitrous, etc. If the TBI doesn't have progressive linkage, then the tuning is linear and pretty simple, aka same as multi-port tuning.
    Last edited by TheSilverBuick; May 8, 2016, 11:16 AM.
    Escaped on a technicality.

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    • #3
      Thank you for the reply.
      I'll have to look at the throttle body to see what linkage it is..

      Comment


      • #4
        I started in 2008 with a 2-bbl TBI and an MS1 and soon after MS2 fuel only batch fire multi-port on a V8, and a month later (when I was comfortable with the fuel side and driving it) added ignition control. Then eventually added a crank trigger for steadier timing (not that the distributor timing is bad). Then a couple years after swapped in a MS3 processor with the 3x board and re-wired the injector harness for sequential fuel injection and converted my distributor to a cam sensor (which it doesn't need for semi-sequential running). Once that was running smoothly, a year or so later I went distributorless and added LS coils to the engine. Just utilizing/adding features bit by bit as I got more comfortable with the features I was using. I'm now starting to delve into launch and traction control. Don't have to eat the whole elephant at once That's why I think your plan is an excellent one!
        Escaped on a technicality.

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        • #5
          If I've read the info on the MSII it has a map sensor on board.
          Is it better to use an external one , or use the built in one...
          I know the g.m. ones are not hard to get at a pick and pull.
          Is there a good source for a wide band when at a yard, make ,model that use a good one, or new?
          I'd think most newer vehicles have them, or am I incorrect ??
          When you say 4 wire HEI.. do you mean, the mid 80's up. or is this the small cap unit on vortec truck 350's
          Thanks again for the help/replies..

          Comment


          • #6
            The MS 3.0 and 3.57 boards have a built in MAP sensor (the processor can be swapped between the MS1,2&3), which you can also upgrade to the "MAP Daddy" board with a barometric sensor too as well as will handle higher boost levels if you go that direction (the on board one is good to something like 20psi). The MicroSquirt requires an external sensor.

            4-pin HEI is in reference to the module in the HEI distributor. The 4-pin one is the big cap HEI that was being used in the 70's through early 80's. The later 80's HEI's are big cap 7-pin and the small cap 8-pin. Either one can be used with the MegaSquirt for timing control, but only the 4-pin one can be reliably used without ECU timing control. My recommendation is still to start with a 4-pin HEI. If you want a small cap distributor for aesthetics, you can use one when you are comfortable with timing control, or jump right into timing control from the start by getting your "Tach In" signal straight from the small cap pickup coil. IMO, I wouldn't bother ever using the 7-pin or 8-pin ignition modules. They sound simpler to use, but in reality they are just extra complexity in the system. Just let the MegaSquirt do the job.

            Wideband sensors are not necessarily hard to find, its the controller for the wideband's that you need. The MegaSquirt cannot directly control/read a wideband O2 sensor, so your best bet is to pick up an aftermarket controller/sensor combo. My recommendation is the Innovate LC2, but essentially any of the commercial ones will have a 0-5v output that the MegaSquirt can use.
            Last edited by TheSilverBuick; May 9, 2016, 08:41 AM.
            Escaped on a technicality.

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            • #7
              What is the difference between the MSIII kit and what they are calling MS330-K Kit with MapDaddy4 Upgrade

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JamesMayberryIII View Post
                What is the difference between the MSIII kit and what they are calling MS330-K Kit with MapDaddy4 Upgrade
                1.5 bar of MAP sensor capability. The regular kit has a 2.5 bar, the one with the MapDaddy upgrade has a 4 bar upgrade plus a barometric correction sensor.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Matt Cramer View Post

                  1.5 bar of MAP sensor capability. The regular kit has a 2.5 bar, the one with the MapDaddy upgrade has a 4 bar upgrade plus a barometric correction sensor.
                  English, please newbie to all this..

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                  • #10
                    The regular MAP sensor is good for around 22psi of boost (2.5 bar) and the MapDaddy is good for another 20psi of boost (1.5 bar). Plus has a second sensor on it for real time barometric(elevation) corrections.

                    **I very loosely approximated the bar to psi values.
                    Escaped on a technicality.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheSilverBuick View Post
                      The regular MAP sensor is good for around 22psi of boost (2.5 bar) and the MapDaddy is good for another 20psi of boost (1.5 bar). Plus has a second sensor on it for real time barometric(elevation) corrections.

                      **I very loosely approximated the bar to psi values.
                      Is that what the MAF does, or is that totally different??
                      Sorry for all the questions.. I found the MS forums, and it's a tad overwhelming..
                      I don't think I'd ever hit over 22psi any time soon, but is the other (highlighted) worth having,? and can it be added to the basic MSIII kit..?
                      4 c-notes doesn't seem that bad..

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes'ish. Yes a MAF can compensate for elevation, but there is almost no reason to ever use a MAF sensor on an aftermarket EFI setup. Typically they are expensive and limit actual airflow for higher HP applications.

                        I live at 6,500ft, work at 7,000ft, often drive down a few thousand feet without turning the car off, so I have the MapDaddy upgrades on mine. If most your driving is below 5,000ft, you are likely fine without one and you could always upgrade it later or simply wire in an external MAP sensor later to be a barometer. aka easy later upgrade if needed.
                        Escaped on a technicality.

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                        • #13
                          I run an external map on my MS3X, I need to figure out how to set up the built in sensor for baro.
                          1968 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S 340 with a 360
                          1997 Jeep Cherokee off road toy/driver. lifted, lockers, stroked 4.0

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BlueCuda340 View Post
                            I run an external map on my MS3X, I need to figure out how to set up the built in sensor for baro.
                            It's pretty easy on recent firmware:

                            1. Go to Basic / Load Settings -> General Settings.
                            2. Set Barometric Correction to "Two Indpeendent Sensors".
                            3. Set Realtime Baro Port to "Mainboard."

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                            • #15
                              See that is the kind of service DIYAutotune provides right there!

                              ​Thanks Matt!
                              1968 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S 340 with a 360
                              1997 Jeep Cherokee off road toy/driver. lifted, lockers, stroked 4.0

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