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  • Duratec V12

    I've gone loony but rocking a crying baby for hours will do that to you... ;)

    I started looking over the Ford 3.4L 60deg V8 found in the 96-99 Taurus SHO, this was largely prompted by me looking at Volvo XC90's as a family hauler. I've always wanted a V12 and this was an interesting way of doing it.

    The Ford Duratec family of V6's produced the 3.4L V8 though they won't admit it. The rods are the same and the bore, bore spacing, and what looks like the headbolt pattern are all the same. Since the V8 uses a lower bearing plate instead of individual main caps it looks like you could cut two blocks down to V6's (one loosing the back and the other the front) strategically to form an interlocking pattern and then weld them together then use a welded lower plate to help tie it all together. Similarly you could take two Duratec V6 cranks and weld them together (the V8 crank has split pins so it's out). Heads could be V6 units with the cam drive section cut off of the fronts or V8 units cut down. The cams would the hardest part I'd think. I was thinking you could cut down the V8 cams and then either weld or spline them together. Using V6 cams would be a challenge since the rear of the front cam doesn't leave much to play with.

    I've seen the documentation online of the Chevy I6 running a pair of SB2 heads welded together so I don't doubt this would work with enough skill as a welder.
    Central TEXAS Sleeper
    USAF Physicist

    ROA# 9790

  • #2

    Re: Duratec V12

    Re: Duratec V12

    The Aston Martin 6.0L V12 in the Vanquish shared a lot of components and design elements with the 3.0L Duratec V6. Rich people seem to crash a lot, so there are engines available. I drove a Vanquish twice at work, and it was impressive. You'd want the PCM, the wiring, sensors, maybe the instrument cluster, ignition switch if it's got PATS: basically you should probably buy the wreck, strip it, and sell the leftovers when you're done with the project. What do you want to stick a V12 in? I believe they even had a real manual transmission available in the later models. The ones I drove had paddle shift semi-automatic transmissions, and you might not want that headache.

    Here's an Aston V12 for $22K.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Aston...item2a0b674112

    For a much cheaper alternative, Jaguar V12's are available too. Here's one for a grand.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jagua...item5193607364

    There was one for $500 that wasn't nearly as clean, and missing a few bits.

    Seems like you'd be way better off buying a used one that an OEM spent millions developing, than trying to weld something together.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Duratec V12

      Re: Duratec V12

      No idea what I'd put it in, as I'm not sure the dimensions of it. As I said this was born out of putting a crying baby to sleep with plenty of time to think and then a bit of internet research through bearing and enthusiest sites looking up what was cross compatable. Still $22k is more than I pay for my "new" daily drivers, I can buy and practice a lot with a TIG at that price and I already have mill. To be honest it's a mind game that I wanted to share more than I'm moving down the road of doing. If I knew I could personally weld it up I'd be shopping for SHO's with spun cam gears and smashed valves.

      Call me weird but I'd put it under the hood of an X300 XJ or a Fox body LTD if it'd fit.
      Central TEXAS Sleeper
      USAF Physicist

      ROA# 9790

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Duratec V12

        Re: Duratec V12

        CTX is getting back to his old self! :D
        Proudly using www.DIYAutotune.com custom EFI components!

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Duratec V12

          Re: Duratec V12

          Oooooh, this is neat. I love learning these little tidbits of info that only another junkie would know.

          Regarding the Jag V12's, people seem to avoid them like the plague lol. However, an engineer I worked for (and still do on occasion) built up a badass one: custom intake, custom headers, custom ground cams and whole other bunch of trick stuff. It's currently sitting in a corner of his shop.

          Welding two V6's together would be one hell of a job - I think that would earn you a rank in Gearhead Glory. It would beyond awesome to do something like this. Although not nearly on this scale, like you mentioned many folks have cut and welded heads to fit blocks whose designers wouldn't have thought of doing such things in their wildest dreams (or nightmares lol). I have immense respect for people who are dedicated and ingenious enough to make something essentially entirely new.

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Duratec V12

            Re: Duratec V12

            .....somebody needs to make a 6.0 V12 out of two 2jz's

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Duratec V12

              Re: Duratec V12

              .....somebody needs to make a 6.0 V12 out of two 2jz's

              With 2400hp... ;D

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Duratec V12

                Re: Duratec V12

                .....somebody needs to make a 6.0 V12 out of two 2jz's

                With 2400hp... ;D
                Making a V12 out of two I6's with a common crank would be insane. However, I think you could mount two I6's parallel to each other and couple them together with a chain or gearbox... just like many of the multi-engined LSR cars and dragsters of the 60's.

                K, so who's in? Let's build a badass twin-engine FED powered by two I6's leaning over at 45*.... 2JZ's not required, but if we must at least we'll be doing it BangShift style!

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Duratec V12

                  Re: Duratec V12

                  .....somebody needs to make a 6.0 V12 out of two 2jz's

                  With 2400hp... ;D
                  id settle for a 5.2 v12 made out of two rb26dett's too ;D

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Duratec V12

                    Re: Duratec V12

                    I have to wonder how long a welded-together crankshaft or camshaft would last. I'd think keeping it aligned and straight while welding it would be a major problem. I don't know how Ford Racing did it when they developed the Aston V12, but I'd bet it was CNC'd out of billet.

                    Aston V12 in a Lincoln LS with a 6-speed would probably be a fun car. I love the sound of a V12.

                    I think I saw a Falconer V12 in a dragster once. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Falconer was based on the Rolls Royce Merlin. They're big bucks.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Duratec V12

                      Re: Duratec V12

                      CTX -- dude, when I hit the lottery, you're getting setup with one HELL of a "mad scientists" you dream up some freakish and cool stuff.

                      Like anything else in the gearhead world, I'm sure it is possible. Just takes time, money, and skill.

                      I really enjoy reading your ideas though man, wild stuff!

                      Brian
                      That which you manifest is before you.

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Duratec V12

                        Re: Duratec V12

                        chain em together like reb's buddy yannick

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Duratec V12

                          Re: Duratec V12

                          I have to wonder how long a welded-together crankshaft or camshaft would last. I'd think keeping it aligned and straight while welding it would be a major problem. I don't know how Ford Racing did it when they developed the Aston V12, but I'd bet it was CNC'd out of billet.

                          Aston V12 in a Lincoln LS with a 6-speed would probably be a fun car. I love the sound of a V12.

                          I think I saw a Falconer V12 in a dragster once. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Falconer was based on the Rolls Royce Merlin. They're big bucks.
                          hmm that might be easier then you think lol seeing as the LS is based off of the XJ i think that's waht it is ???

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Duratec V12

                            Re: Duratec V12

                            LS is based off of the XJ i think
                            Close. LS, S-type Jag, and 2002+ T-Bird are all built off the DEW98 platform. As a small bit of trivia, the 2005+ Mustang also shares part of the same platform. I wonder if the LS and Mustang have the same hard points and you could put the suspension from the LS under the Mustang...hmmm, anyone want to take some measurements? Although Halloween is past, I think I hear the hoofbeats of the Frankenstang.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Duratec V12

                              Re: Duratec V12

                              DEW98 is an excellent platform.
                              I don't believe the cobra IRS from the SN95 was used for the DEW98, I think it's more jag components.

                              LS was a great car - just not marketed or priced right - never really caught on - but those that have them for the most part loved them.

                              I think putting a coupler between the two crankshafts would be easier than trying to weld them together and try to combine the crank cases. Think early twin engine dragster.
                              There's always something new to learn.

                              Comment


                              • #16

                                Re: Duratec V12

                                Re: Duratec V12

                                my kinda daydream.

                                the notice of 60 degree and v8 hardly goes correct.. the v12 is a great idea. they must have flubbed a crazy crank however, so a crank would need to be from some source with evenly aligned journals. Crazy as a 4.3 chevy...

                                the v8 , after all, is two inline fours made by an idiot.

                                I even found my "little" subaru boxer from the 1980s as a flat 12... (built by japanese themselves), they also made a flat 6 out of the four, much like porsches cheap history.

                                ;)
                                Atomization is excitement, not temperature.

                                Comment


                                • #17

                                  Re: Duratec V12

                                  Re: Duratec V12

                                  Couple them together back to back. Spin one engine backwards.

                                  Just adding to the insanity. ;D

                                  1973 F-250 460/C6 -Camper Special 1983 Mustang GT 545/C6 - 10.46 @ 130 - Drag Week 2012 - Street Race BB N/A runner-up

                                  Comment


                                  • #18

                                    Re: Duratec V12

                                    Re: Duratec V12

                                    I have to wonder how long a welded-together crankshaft or camshaft would last. I'd think keeping it aligned and straight while welding it would be a major problem. I don't know how Ford Racing did it when they developed the Aston V12, but I'd bet it was CNC'd out of billet.

                                    Aston V12 in a Lincoln LS with a 6-speed would probably be a fun car. I love the sound of a V12.

                                    I think I saw a Falconer V12 in a dragster once. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Falconer was based on the Rolls Royce Merlin. They're big bucks.
                                    hmm that might be easier then you think lol seeing as the LS is based off of the XJ i think that's what it is ???
                                    The LS (Jag S-type and Ford Thunderbird) are all DEW98's which is a normal unibody with a body and non stressed skin. The X305 and X308 XJ's are stressed skin monocoques that are glued and riveted together. That doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea however, though the 32.5in length of the motor would be an issue. I calculated that based off of the total length of a Duratec V6 minus the space taken by it's 3 cylinders per bank (3x bore spacing) then multiplied the bore spacing by 6 for the V12 and added the extra bits for the bellhousing and accessory drive. In reality it might be even shorter since the V8 front drive is even more compact. All in all it's shorter than a 4.6L DOHC motor and a bit narrower, however the 60deg V angle means it's also taller but a 3.0L Duratec fits under the hood so it could work. An X300 (92-02 XJ) would give you more room (early ones did offer the last of the V12's) and they did come with Duratec's in Europe I'm fairly sure during that time period).
                                    People have adapted the 8.8 IRS center section into the 1st Gen LS rear suspension but all suffer from a 5spd A4LD derivative for the auto trans and stick getrags aren't much stronger. The problem with adapting anything into an LS is that the computer system is a CAN buss and if you swap something you pretty much loose all the electronics because the ECM isn't there to approve everything.

                                    On the crankshaft welding, that might be a weak link but if the Aston V12 kept the same bore spacing it would be a candidate for that usage. Something else I just thought of, dual thrust bearings. Would take some very precise measurements to keep those from conflicting and filling your motor with bearing bits. If the bearings are otherwise identical, you might be able to replace one with a standard bearing.
                                    Central TEXAS Sleeper
                                    USAF Physicist

                                    ROA# 9790

                                    Comment


                                    • #19

                                      Re: Duratec V12

                                      Re: Duratec V12

                                      LS is based off of the XJ i think
                                      Close. LS, S-type Jag, and 2002+ T-Bird are all built off the DEW98 platform. As a small bit of trivia, the 2005+ Mustang also shares part of the same platform. I wonder if the LS and Mustang have the same hard points and you could put the suspension from the LS under the Mustang...hmmm, anyone want to take some measurements? Although Halloween is past, I think I hear the hoofbeats of the Frankenstang.
                                      no idea what that would be awsome IRS strang


                                      and yes the LS was under apretiated. i still want one. there not fast but a nice ride with the 3.9L

                                      Comment


                                      • #20

                                        Re: Duratec V12

                                        Re: Duratec V12

                                        all those LS are kind of rare

                                        Comment

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