At Engine Masters 2014

[William Wilson]

I think to change things up they need to start putting these engines into a car and sending it down a track.

Like a front engined dragster with a spec power-glide and the builder brings the engine and a torq-converter to the contest.

Then score based on the dyno runs and on the Elapsed Time.

[TheSilverBuick]

Considering #1 and #3 were from the same builder and two completely different makes of engine (Hemi and LS), I'd say the builder had some innovation going. Especially considering the second place engine made 10/4 more HP/TQ with mere 16 more cubic inches than the first place engine, but scored significantly lower per the rules, shows some outside the box thinking was going on. That and icing up the intake manifold!

[dieselgeek]

I think to change things up they need to start putting these engines into a car and sending it down a track.

Like a front engined dragster with a spec power-glide and the builder brings the engine and a torq-converter to the contest.

Then score based on the dyno runs and on the Elapsed Time.

Well, first, the engines these are closest to are Road Racers, not drag racers, so they either need to make it a "peak power" contest (boringly easy for a builder) or they need to race on a roadcourse. And considering in both cases that the driver is as much or more factor as the engine... do the teams provide their own driver? how would that work? think about the logistics, you have as many as 40-50 engines to test. I think the rules guys are here are listening to suggestions so try to keep them realistic is my point.

[SuperBuickGuy]

Anyone who paid attention to EMC knows that part of being a Great Builder - is knowing what platform to select (raw materials) for a given requirement. Bischoff has won with Chevy, Mopar, Ford. Kaase with Chevy, Ford - his Modular was the first he ever built. As you state, the contest is INDEED about the builder. Intelligent consumers will pay attention to whether or not their builder is a "one make only" specialist, or is talented with everything they build. Hence, the contest being as you say "about builders." Not brands.

yet how does it answer the question - how good is the builder? accepting your argument, there should be only one motor - so in the end, everyone should run OHC motors. To anyone else who's running something else that doesn't have an overhead cam motor, the results mean little if not nothing at all to anyone who buys the magazine. Your own reputation came not from the motors you were associated with, but from your knowledge of tuning... and this needs saying, I'm biting my tongue from being sarcastic - I'd suggest you'd do well to do the same.

From another perspective, I used to watch F1 racing until it hurt my ears... what they did for motors was cool to watch, but when it became painful to watch - I found something else to do. When you're in commerce, at some point you need to justify that the effort is bringing in customers.

[JOES66FURY]

I dont really have a dog in this fight but I agree that peak #'s is not very interesting. I like the idea of an engine that builds useable power over a broad RPM range...

Not being the brightest star in the night time sky, I wonder if any of the technology being developed here is being watched by auto makers?

[dieselgeek]

yet how does it answer the question - how good is the builder? accepting your argument, there should be only one motor - so in the end, everyone should run OHC motors. To anyone else who's running something else that doesn't have an overhead cam motor, the results mean little if not nothing at all to anyone who buys the magazine. Your own reputation came not from the motors you were associated with, but from your knowledge of tuning... and this needs saying, I'm biting my tongue from being sarcastic - I'd suggest you'd do well to do the same.

From another perspective, I used to watch F1 racing until it hurt my ears... what they did for motors was cool to watch, but when it became painful to watch - I found something else to do. When you're in commerce, at some point you need to justify that the effort is bringing in customers.

Aha! but therein lies the intersting part. Some guys will choose one platform over another. I.e. BES might do better with a late Hemi, but S.A.M. will do best with an LS. You're right though, if the rules aren't carefully written, then there will be "one design" that might be best overall (Ford Modular in 2013). That being said, I'm sure if they allowed Lexus 1UZ (or whatever their family of 4-valve DOHC V8s are called) and Nissan as well - the mods would probably get their asses handed to them.

I'm with you in that there needs to be something more relevant to the readership and people that ultimately we're all trying to convince to spend money on parts and services.

But see Joe's reply? he understands peak power is easy, average power is hard. In answer to his question, the OEMs are less likely to care about what's going on here (they are restricted so much by emissions and development costs), but racing engine developers are usually the ones paying attention. In 2011, Bob Panoz' engine builder Chris Smith showed up with what amounted to leftover used junk from roadracing small block fords of years past - and kicked everyone's ass.

[William Wilson]

I think to change things up they need to start putting these engines into a car and sending it down a track.

Like a front engined dragster with a spec power-glide and the builder brings the engine and a torq-converter to the contest.

Then score based on the dyno runs and on the Elapsed Time.

Well, first, the engines these are closest to are Road Racers, not drag racers, so they either need to make it a "peak power" contest (boringly easy for a builder) or they need to race on a roadcourse. And considering in both cases that the driver is as much or more factor as the engine... do the teams provide their own driver? how would that work? think about the logistics, you have as many as 40-50 engines to test. I think the rules guys are here are listening to suggestions so try to keep them realistic is my point.

I picked drag racing because it is the only one where driver skill could be reduced or mitigated.

What I'd do is build 5-6 identical basic basic dragsters.

Each dragster would be expected to run two engines a day.

Event is five days.

It could work.

But you are right I'm just daydreaming.

I would be cool to see done.

But would be too much logistics money and there is too much room for driver influences to ruin the balance.

A tiny bit more realistic suggestion would be to simulate a road course on the dyno.

I know the F1 teams do it.

How hard could it be to program in variable load patterns that the engines need to produce.

I'm sure someone in the dyno business could figure out a way to make it work.

Finally as a proper request

I'd like to see smaller motors like the Buick 215 and the 289 and 283 and flatheads given a way to compete.

I know they probably can't compete with the modern 400+ ci motors but they deserve a class.

Hell I'd like to see a 270ci offy in competition.

[Whelk]

So now that EM is over this year, all those engines are outdated and useless now, right? I figure they're out back piled by the dumpster. No one will notice if one get's hauled away for .. er.. recycling. right?

[Beagle]

yeah, I picked one up out of Kaase's dumpster yesterday on my scavenge...er.. scrap run, and tossed it into the passenger seat. You're too late!! Now all I gotta do is take off all that confusing power making EFI crap and put a 750 holley carb on it, then I can launch my moon mission! Pffft.

William, the rules take the CID into account:

...Scored qualifying pulls will consist of three medium acceleration pulls with scoring data recorded from 3,000 rpm and ending at 6,500 rpm. Average corrected torque plus peak corrected torque from each of the three scored qualifying pulls will be added together to arrive at an average torque quotient. Average corrected horsepower plus peak corrected horsepower from each of the three scored qualifying pulls will be added together to arrive at an average horsepower quotient.

To compensate for the different engine displacements, the average torque quotient for three dyno pulls and the average horsepower quotient for three dyno pulls are added together. The sum of the average torque quotient and the average horsepower quotient are multiplied by 1,000 and then divided by the claimed cubic inch displacement of the engine. This will yield a quotient number to be used for scoring for engine dyno results. Final quotient numbers are recorded to one decimal place on scoring form. Rounding of numbers will be utilizing standard rounding: Example 2232.96 = 2233.0.

...
Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...#ixzz3GnXFs6Ey

/ editing on this forum gets harder all the time - paragraph spacing goes away? Yikes.

[William Wilson]

William, the rules take the CID into account:

I'm aware. I should have been more clear. My issue is that the rules place a minimum on displacement which I consider arbitrary.

I think I just want more variety.

[Bob Holmes]

What domestic engine do you want to see that wasn't represented?

[William Wilson]

What domestic engine do you want to see that wasn't represented?

I think there have been a small block Buick.

But I'd love to see more, especially since someone is making (TA performance?) aluminium heads that work on the 215-340 ci motors. (the one with the reversed intake port patterns compared to the 2 and 2 pattern of the 350)

I'd also like to see some of the Dodge and Plymouth HEMIs run because I don't think anyone has built one for the competition.

[SuperBuickGuy]

small bore, long stroke, bad oil system, weak bottom end... yeah, it would be a trick to make hp with that... if you ever want to make power with one of those, I have all sorts of speed bits for that motor (heads, studs, etc).... guy didn't prime the oil system before he started it.... oops.

[Scott Liggett]

I picked drag racing because it is the only one where driver skill could be reduced or mitigated.

What I'd do is build 5-6 identical basic basic dragsters.

Each dragster would be expected to run two engines a day.

Event is five days.

It could work.

But you are right I'm just daydreaming.

I would be cool to see done.

But would be too much logistics money and there is too much room for driver influences to ruin the balance.

A tiny bit more realistic suggestion would be to simulate a road course on the dyno.

I know the F1 teams do it.

How hard could it be to program in variable load patterns that the engines need to produce.

I'm sure someone in the dyno business could figure out a way to make it work.

Finally as a proper request

I'd like to see smaller motors like the Buick 215 and the 289 and 283 and flatheads given a way to compete.

I know they probably can't compete with the modern 400+ ci motors but they deserve a class.

Hell I'd like to see a 270ci offy in competition.

William, you are saying, more or less, the same thing DG said. Make it more relevant to the consumer. For yourself, you understand drag racing. Other people understand other kind of racing. Or, just what it is like to drive their hot rod.

Magazine readers always respond to horsepower numbers. Big numbers get attention. Even if all you drive is a muscle car on the street. It's understandable that your car that you know how fun it is with 400 hp, 800 hp would be double the fun and wild. It gets them excited. But as the rules are written now in EMC, the general enthusiast won't understand why a 750 hp engine beat one that peaked at 900 hp.

DF has the ability to make the contest relatable to consumers. Will be interesting to see how he changes the rules, it he does at all..

[TheSilverBuick]

I think normalizing out displacement and weighting in the mid-range power makes it a true challenge. And though we here are typically drag race oriented folks, as pointed out, this competition is huge for showing road race power building. It's showing off the skills of the builders no doubt. Just as much marketing for the builders as is competition for them. Serious racing competitors, with good money to spend, know how Engine Master's is scored and can see the innovation in the different builds.

I think it's scoring system is pretty good. I like the change up of the rules to showcase various types of engine builds, as the rules ALWAYS favor a certain type of build over another, but it would be interesting to see an "unlimited naturally aspirated" year. I bet it could get dominated by real small engines, 4-cylinders even, IF the rpm window is opened up enough to allow them to make good on their efficiency. Or maybe not? That's why I think it'd be pretty neat to see.