Keith...ring gear

[Freiburger]

How does a brand new flywheel have a bad ring gear? You sure you have the starter shimmed properly? You sure it's the correct starter for the tooth count?

[SpeedZealot]

i've always had trouble with ford starters especially with aftermarket bellhousings, and engine plates, it really screws up the engagement

[squirrel]

...but this one's a simple big block chevy, right?

(have you ever fixed one that was put on backwards?)

[SpeedZealot]

Nope,I just made the customer buy the right part, but i have seen it before. I thought it was a 460 ford personally... Chevy's don't have that problem, its usually the installer

[KeithTurk]

Hmmm Here's the deal...

It's a brand new starter for a Big Block... but it also fits a small block?

It's got both bolt patterns on it... obviously the big Block takes the offset bolts...

X

X

instead of

X X

So... who freaking knows... it sounded great for the first few times it ran... never had an issue... of any kind... Then it kind of Clicked... and hit the big Zing a couple of times.... next thing I know it won't turn over Squat...
and the ring gear is totally trashed... ( in once place for about 4 inches ) But I should be able to tell you more this afternoon as I take the motor back out...



Keith

[Freiburger]

Sounds like really bad shimming. I'm not sure if a tooth-count mismatch would do that or not.

[min301]

Sounds like really bad shimming. I'm not sure if a tooth-count mismatch would do that or not.



I've seen it a time or two, so it's possible.

[squirrel]

tooth count mismatch on chevys makes it off by 3/4", so that's not the issue.

I've seen flywheels on backwards, I've seen starters need to be shimmed quite a bit in both directions, I've seen defective starters, and some engines are built wrong and won't turn!

Sounds like a new flywheel is needed, and maybe a new starter, and carefull checking of the clearance.

[Freiburger]

tooth count mismatch on chevys makes it off by 3/4", so that's not the issue.


That was kinda what I suspected.

Keith: if the flywheel is on backwards, I didn't do it.

BTW, that is an EXTERNALLY balanced engine, in case that comes up.

[squirrel]

good point, the 454 takes a 454 flywheel, did they change them on the newer gen engines?

[KeithTurk]

Thanks David.... I think I know the problem... I'll let you guys guess for a while... cause I could be wrong...

K

[min301]

tooth count mismatch on chevys makes it off by 3/4", so that's not the issue.

I've seen flywheels on backwards, I've seen starters need to be shimmed quite a bit in both directions, I've seen defective starters, and some engines are built wrong and won't turn!

Sounds like a new flywheel is needed, and maybe a new starter, and carefull checking of the clearance.



I've seen starters have the wrong drive, creating a mismatch.
Which I should have clairified.
Sorry.

Ditto on the shimming. I try to use my local Car Quest, they virtually promised me no shimming issues, ever. They use only new cases.

[BlackoutSteve]

If the ring gear is trashed, then one would expect that the starter's gear must be even worse.
What's it like?

Would it be possible through an electrical fault (or user :P) that the starter tried to engage while the engine was running?

[squirrel]

I think the starter gear is hardened, the flywheel teeth are not (or not as much)

[BlackoutSteve]

But still.. ~160 teeth verses about 10.. There would still be some damage I'd expect.

[biginch]

if it is a ministarter, they have a nasty tendency to be too tall (needing material removed from the mount block, the exact opposite of shimming), my msd/powermaster starter tore up my first flexplate because of this, stupid me put it on without checking the tooth engagement properly, the old "sounds good" method dont work for crap with big motors, by the time you hear it, the damage is done.

lets hear it! whats wrong with it?

[fabricatordave]

Ive had starters i had to mill 1/8 inch or better to get proper tooth engagement you would think they would try harder

o yea N needs
E extra
W work

[KeithTurk]

Sorry guys.... didn't get the motor out today... so I can't confirm my suspicions... but I'm thinking at Starter bolt is supposed to be larger then 3/8th's and this one didn't come with any... So I went to my Bolt bin and got a set of Grade 8 3/8ths bolts.... I just checked the starter bolts that I bought at the Semi Parts store....and they were .400 instead of .375... ( not for trucks... this is a parts store that specializes in car wax and seat covers )...

So there ya go... that's my thoughts.... I'll get it out and let ya know...

K

[squirrel]

The bolts for it need to be the right ones! they make metric bolts for late models that are not the same as the special knurled 3/8" bolts that a big block should take.

[CTX-SLPR]

Starter bolts are starter specific, sounds like you had a squirming starter that got itself all out of alignment with its torque kick over and engagement.

[Freiburger]

Yeah...not good. You need the special shouldered bolts. The HELP! department in the local parts-o-rama might have a kit that's close...or not. Junkyard run is best.

[CTX-SLPR]

GM dealer should still sell them too, but probably not cheap.

[KeithTurk]

It just sucks cause I busted my ass to get this thing to my freinds show on Saturday and before this happened... I'd have just about made it.... might have had to run with no alternator... but I could have made it happen... oh well ...

Keith

[stmike]

if its not the bolts maybe there's excessive run-out on the flywheel? i've had trouble with two flywheels (both were aluminum) that had that problem.

[TC]

GM dealer should still sell them too, but probably not cheap.

But I'm sure their not as expensive as a new starter or flywheel. ;)

Plus if your like me you already have an account setup with the dealer so you get shop price on everything. ;)

[KeithTurk]

Okay I've got the motor out.... ring gear and starter didn't connect all the way... at full extension the starter gear only engaged 1/2 the flywheel.... this would have been easy to check if I'd have had the starter before I stuffed the motor in the car.... Lesson learned... Starter also doesn't line up with the back of the block... Hmmm

Just never had an issue like this before... most the time stuff works...

Keith

[Freiburger]

... most the time stuff works...

Keith



We must not live in the same world.

That's a bummer.

[KeithTurk]

I'd mention that ....after installing the ring gear on the flywheel... checking the clutch surface area wouldn't be a good idea without gloves right? Don't ask...

Off to get a couple of starters... both the new mini starter and a stock style high performance one the guy swears by.... and he's willing to let me try it and Return it.... Hmmm ... almost like he wants to be in the parts business and is growing tired of Carnuuuuuba's and air fresheners...

Keith

[White Monster]

... almost like he wants to be in the parts business and is growing tired of Carnuuuuuba's and air fresheners...


;D

[fabricatordave]

UPDATE?

[KeithTurk]

I'm going to re-title this Starter / ring gear.... and give me answers to what it was...

K