BEST IDEA FOR LAND SPEED

[Shawn Anderson]

Ok guy's too much time in a hotel room got me thinking about land speed racing. I have been thinking about a procharger on my mustang and the proper saftey mods seems it would be pretty strait forward and alot of fun, but it seems like for around the same amount of money (but way more time witch I always lack) I could build a land speed car out of my 86 thunderbird. The advantage to the bird is I could just gut the interior and add a full cage ware as the stang I am not willing to go more than a 6 point in the mustang. It seems like the thunderbird would also be more aerodynamic. Right now the bird has a 400hp 351c and 200hp of spray I would have to build a more serios motor to go fast, but could use what I have to get my license. Right now the car has a C6 auto but I have a toploader. Give your thoughts.

[Brian Lohnes]

.35 drag # for the T-Bird....what year is the Mustang?

I know the cd isn't everything, but it's something right?

Brian

[Shawn Anderson]

2005

[Brian Lohnes]

Looks like the number on the 2005 Mustang is .38

Brian

[squirrel]

At speed, I'm sure it is, but it's interesting how the big white Camaro did this year with and without it's super aero nose.


I think the rear spoiler being on or off the car made a lot more difference! although the spoiler and blower were installed and removed at the same time

[dieselgeek]

I vote for the bird. Over time you are going to end up cutting the car up anyways and the later model car will lose a lot of value. Meanwhile there's no problem hacking up the old car as you get more into the sport...

I know Keith is always telling people to think about CD and frontal area on their first cars, but my observation is that a lot of the guys who "do well" at the sport, are using the same old car that they rework each season. Seems the T-bird would go along with this theme more easily.

Plus, if you put a badass mod motor in it, then you can go the V10 Mercury route and run it with a standalone, which we all know is a ton more fun! :-)

[JRoberts]

Lawson Bilhardt runs a Super Coupe at Maxton and has been quite successful over the years. Maybe Keith or Tonya can let you know how to get up with him. He's a great guy and I'm sure would love to help you if he can.

[Remy-Z]

Another nod for the 'Bird. There has to be plenty of aero tricks for that thing from it's NASCAR days.

[Fordplay0621]

T-Bird for sure.
NASCAR Has alot of info you can use for Aero planning. I'm sure you can find a few Older Guys with a lot of info you can use.

[terry russell]

The T bird is the way to go.Short wheel base/poor aero of the mustang puts you at a disadvantage.
Lose as much weight as you can then put back where its needed 53% up front.Lawson uses air bags to go low.
He ran 187+ at the last meet.
terry

[dieselgeek]

The T bird is the way to go.Short wheel base/poor aero of the mustang puts you at a disadvantage.
Lose as much weight as you can then put back where its needed 53% up front.Lawson uses air bags to go low.
He ran 187+ at the last meet.
terry


that's 187mph on a 3.8 liter v6 with a supercharger, right?? wow.

[purplecobra]

an 86 t bird is a fox based car so it's a rebodied stang . I still vote for it. The yellow GT is too nice to cut up, I wonder if Bill Elliot has any old nascar body parts laying around?

[Shawn Anderson]

The idea on the stang was a supercharger and a 6 point bar and try to get the D blown gas super street record wich is 152mph. I would not be willing to do the saftey mods to go over 175 (full cage chute etc.) The Thunderbird on the other hand though it was my first car I am willing to alter in any way to go fast and if I wanted to could put any drivetrain in.

[AdioSS]

The Thunderbird on the other hand though it was my first car I am willing to alter in any way to go fast and if I wanted to could put any drivetrain in.
That's how I feel about my 91 Caprice :)

[White Monster]

I would not be willing to do the saftey mods to go over 175 (full cage chute etc.)
The Thunderbird on the other hand ... I am willing to alter in any way to go fast


Well, there you have the answer to your question then !!

;)

.. and by the way, the "best idea for LSR ", is to go to an event and see the vehicles firsthand, observe tech inspection and talk to the event staff, drivers and crews yourself, without racing the first time. Volunteering to help run the event also provides a unique perspective and some behind the scenes stuff that spectators don't have the opportunity to see.

[Shawn Anderson]

I think I just took a good first step, just sent out my ECTA mebership so I will have a rule book and can start planning a little more. Once I have the rule book I think I may check with some local shops that do circle track cages. It is a great idea to see a event before building a car and if it some how works out that I can go to the October event I will.

[DCarr]

Once I have the rule book I think I may check with some local shops that do circle track cages.


Be careful there ... the circle track cars around here are only required to have .100" MS ..... wont pass in LSR

[terry russell]

most circle track cars are only good for side hits,think end over/barrel roll ect.Look at lawsons,Turks.
terry

[terry russell]

The T bird is the way to go.Short wheel base/poor aero of the mustang puts you at a disadvantage.
Lose as much weight as you can then put back where its needed 53% up front.Lawson uses air bags to go low.
He ran 187+ at the last meet.
terry


that's 187mph on a 3.8 liter v6 with a supercharger, right?? wow.


Yes. I think the car went 124 stock factory everything
terry

[KeithTurk]

Old Nascar Wind tunnel tricks on that body still work, ya know... Hmmm

I'm a fan of the bird... and you can run a 2.3 Turbo motor as well.... ( I love those things )

Keith

[dieselgeek]

I know someone who has a solid 2.3 turbo recipe... ;)

[Shawn Anderson]

Never thought of a 2.3 turbo, just shows how many combo's could fit in the car: production with a 5.0, 2.3, 2.3 turbo and of course lots of others in modified classes. The 351c that in it is just a bracket motor, stock rods/crank 12.5 to 1 4v heads and a .560 lift 232@.050 duration cam along with a 200hp plate system.

[terry russell]

LSR should have a theme song for the newly inducted... "Get down with the sickness" . The possibilities are mind boggling. There should be a support group. "Hi, my name is Pat, and I had this sick ass dream again last night..."

"Hi Pat"

"Hi, ummm.... yeah, so this f*'er Freiburger had to go and mention a one cylinder SBC, and it's gone kinda down hill since then. I haven't had a normal car dream in like, 4 months"

(applause)

They volunteer to be your sponsor at the end of the support meeting. People who will help you live your dream.





(obviously off my meds...)

Tuesday night could be 4 cylinder turbo night.

: )
yes your sick
it should be twin turbo 4 cyl. night

[Fordplay0621]

Get to Cutting and Welding.

[Shawn Anderson]

Get to Cutting and Welding.

Going on day 6 waiting on starting a new well in a hotel room 700 miles from my cars, it will be atleast another week before I can evan get home. Got to work to play, rule books are on the way. Making a purpose built LSR car out of the Tbird is seeming like a better idea. Man I love looking at rule and record and thinking of combo's. For Maxton is a auto trans a big disadvantage?

[fahrenschnell]

Real cars have 3 pedals.....Oh wait....I only have 2......Crap.

Seth

[dieselgeek]

Get to Cutting and Welding.

Going on day 6 waiting on starting a new well in a hotel room 700 miles from my cars, it will be atleast another week before I can evan get home. Got to work to play, rule books are on the way. Making a purpose built LSR car out of the Tbird is seeming like a better idea. Man I love looking at rule and record and thinking of combo's. For Maxton is a auto trans a big disadvantage?


The problem is dissipating all that heat. At the least you'd want a very tight torque converter. It's murder on a auto trans to be WOT for that amount of time.

-scott

[joebogey]

Get to Cutting and Welding.

Going on day 6 waiting on starting a new well in a hotel room 700 miles from my cars, it will be atleast another week before I can evan get home.   Got to work to play, rule books are on the way.   Making a purpose built LSR car out of the Tbird is seeming like a better idea.   Man I love looking at rule and record and thinking of combo's.  For Maxton is a auto trans a big disadvantage?   


The problem is dissipating all that heat.  At the least you'd want a very tight torque converter.  It's murder on a auto trans to be WOT for that amount of time.

-scott


Thinking completely out my ass, what would happen if you stuck a lock-up converter in a C6?

edit: p.s. Go for the Bird. You can make a dedicated LSR car, and still have the 'stang for playing in between.

[TheSilverBuick]

Get to Cutting and Welding.

Going on day 6 waiting on starting a new well in a hotel room 700 miles from my cars, it will be atleast another week before I can evan get home. Got to work to play, rule books are on the way. Making a purpose built LSR car out of the Tbird is seeming like a better idea. Man I love looking at rule and record and thinking of combo's. For Maxton is a auto trans a big disadvantage?


The problem is dissipating all that heat. At the least you'd want a very tight torque converter. It's murder on a auto trans to be WOT for that amount of time.

-scott


Thinking completely out my ass, what would happen if you stuck a lock-up converter in a C6?

edit: p.s. Go for the Bird. You can make a dedicated LSR car, and still have the 'stang for playing in between.


The trans would need the hardware and valve body to lock it up, I'm not sure if a C6 was ever optioned with a lock up.

[Caveman]

Dude.... go w/the bad 'bird!!

I say get the cage/chassis/safety stuff and then just compete the first time with the current engine/tranny combo... for now.. get it sorted as a race car, then build the 2.3T/302/351C/or whatever size engine that will fit you into the class in which you want to chase a record.

Hey Lohnes, what's the drag coefficient on a '39 Fordor?

Jeez, I can't wait for this Maine LSR thing to get going...

[Brian Lohnes]

Caveman...where are you located? I'm excited for the prospects of Loring as well, but have you seen where Loring Maine is? It's WAYYYY up there.

Dunno on the Fordor...give me a little bit to try and find it.

Brian

[fahrenschnell]

Thunderbird....Here is your car. Awesome Aero, DOHC, Air suspension....

CHEAP...

http://detroit.craigslist.org/pts/873232258.html

I can even go and look at it for you....If you would like.

Seth

[Shawn Anderson]

Thunderbird....Here is your car. Awesome Aero, DOHC, Air suspension....

CHEAP...

http://detroit.craigslist.org/pts/873232258.html

I can even go and look at it for you....If you would like.

Seth


Thanks man thats cheap for mark 8, I have wanted one of them for a long time and would think it would be way more aerodynamic than my tbird. But I think I am going with the bird for a few reasons, get any more cars would meen getting rid of something wich I hate doing, the bird was my first car I will always have it so why not make it a race car, mark 8's have a irs rear end wich I think would be hard to replace with a strait axle andr the final one, if I got it I would not be able to gut like a fish (because those cars are sweet) as I wil with the tbird (the interior is wasted and the power windows are held up with vise grips) thanks for telling me about it though I will now be thinking about it while at work tomorrow.

[Caveman]

Brian, I'm in Plymouth, 02360... 3 miles from the rock. Good to see another Bay Stater. I was kidding on the '39 drag coeff... but if it's avail, it'd be interesting to know... find out what horsepower the ole flattie would need. If I stay with a flattie, that is...
What resource are you using for the aero drag info?

And Loring is a 9-hr tow, vs. a 15hr tow to Maxton, vs. a 4-day tow to B'ville... I think it'd be cool to help get it up & running, especially if the surface is as good as advertised (& looonggg)

T-bird86, I plugged in a 351C with 12.5:1 and your cam into DynoSim... made a few bracket-motor based assumptions... 200 shot... it spit out 765hp at 6000rpm.

That sounds hairy.

[terry russell]

Tbird86, I plugged in a 351C with 12.5:1 and your cam into DynoSim... made a few bracket-motor based assumptions... 200 shot... it spit out 765hp at 6000rpm.

That sounds hairy.

[/quote]
Na just Fast

[Shawn Anderson]

Tbird86, I plugged in a 351C with 12.5:1 and your cam into DynoSim... made a few bracket-motor based assumptions... 200 shot... it spit out 765hp at 6000rpm.

That sounds hairy.


Na just Fast
[/quote]

Found real specs on my cam here is a real run down on my motor:
lift intake .536 exhaust .562
duration@ .050 intake 224 exhaust 234
lsa 112 icl 108

4V heads but smaller 2v sized valves 2.09 intake 1.65 exhaust mpg port plates and very mild pocket work
low rise (torker) single plane intake 825 mighty demon carb
1 7/8 primary tube headers, harland sharp rockers moroso drag race pan
I built this motor like 4 years ago and got busy with other stuff still have not fired it, may not be tough enough stock rods crank but it is all 73 351 cobra jet stuff including 4 bolt main block forged TRW pop up all 70's stuff I have talked to a few hard core cleveland guy and the ones that I have talked to thought low 400hp range

[Shawn Anderson]

Not aussie but american 4v's

[Shawn Anderson]

They are 73 cobra jet open chambers that have had a large amount milled off of them, with along with thin head gaskets and big pop ups give that compresion. I also have a very nice set of 71 closed chamber 4v heads with stainless 2.19 intake and 1.85 exhaust valves and matching strip domintor intake. But it really looks like for a real bad ass motor CHI heads and clark intake are the way to go.

[Caveman]

Hey T-bird86... plugged in revised info... roller or solid cam, btw?

540hp @ 6k, 527lb-ft @ 4k rpm... I dunno, DynoSim seems optimistic, but maybe the software is straight best-case scenario, zero losses etc...

Incidentally, software says the 2.19/1.85 heads are worth 590hp & 544lb-ft... with an 1100 dominator though.

I think my original bracket assumptions were a little outta whack.

[Shawn Anderson]

Hey T-bird86... plugged in revised info... roller or solid cam, btw?

540hp @ 6k, 527lb-ft @ 4k rpm... I dunno, DynoSim seems optimistic, but maybe the software is straight best-case scenario, zero losses etc...

Incidentally, software says the 2.19/1.85 heads are worth 590hp & 544lb-ft... with an 1100 dominator though.

I think my original bracket assumptions were a little outta whack.


The cam is a hydralic flat tappet, the other intake is a holley strip dominator 4150 flange it is the best 4v single plane intake (other than than a clark funnel web) but has been out of production for many years they are still used by many super stock racers. The big valve heads require different pistons than my motor has but I have many spare 351c.

[Caveman]

I'm curious where 351C's can be found these days... I checked out a few sites, and it seems the only stuff one would find is used/rebuilt racer items. I've read that .030" is max re-bore size. Would it be better to build a Windsor?

[min301]

The factory 4v heads have a sweet intake port(actually too big), and a
crappy exhaust port.

Considering the weak oiling system of the Cleveland,
why not build a Clevor?
The windsor oiling system is less crappy and can be fixed easily.
Also, the blocks IMO are stronger, not to mention the parts
are cheaper, and easier to come by.

Just my $.02...

[Caveman]

Clevor?
I like cheap & easy... uh, engines, that is.

A Clevor would be a Windsor block with Cleveland heads, right? Ala Bischoff at Engine Master's, with the Aussie heads?

Can that combo be done with a regular 5.0 block?

[Shawn Anderson]

All my parts came from a garage full of stuff my dad bought in the late 90's in the detroit area, the late owner of them had worked for Gap and Rousch in the 70's and some other shops along with super stocks. Alot of the 351c stuff is old used full race stuff I have a standard bore 4bolt main 351c block and another that is .030 over but sonic tested good to go to .060 I also have a couple 2 bolt blocks. If I went with a windsor block I don't know if the headers would line up 9.2 vs. 9.5 deck. I think that there is a fix for the oiling system that you add a outside oil line on the side of the block, the weakness on the block is with very high HP levels you can blow a side off if there is alot of core shift. It looks like the chi heads have a much better exhaust side its kinda stupid thing to run a 351c most of parts run around the same as 460 for near the same price as 408 aluminum head roller cam cleveland I could have 557 with kaase heads. But I have alot of stuff and I am inpressed with these canted valve small blocks You can build a 5.0 with 351c heads it would be a boss 302, new stuff from edelbrock to do that, though about that and keep it under 305 ci for D class engine but there are no headers for that would have some made

[morley]

I think we should take a canoe and build a ............ sorry I got off track Shawn, I think you should build a nasty big block! After we fubar the clevland in the car ( lots of spray!!!!!!!!!)

[min301]

All my parts came from a garage full of stuff my dad bought in the late 90's in the detroit area, the late owner of them had worked for Gap and Rousch in the 70's and some other shops along with super stocks. Alot of the 351c stuff is old used full race stuff I have a standard bore 4bolt main 351c block and another that is .030 over but sonic tested good to go to .060 I also have a couple 2 bolt blocks. If I went with a windsor block I don't know if the headers would line up 9.2 vs. 9.5 deck. I think that there is a fix for the oiling system that you add a outside oil line on the side of the block, the weakness on the block is with very high HP levels you can blow a side off if there is alot of core shift. It looks like the chi heads have a much better exhaust side its kinda stupid thing to run a 351c most of parts run around the same as 460 for near the same price as 408 aluminum head roller cam cleveland I could have 557 with kaase heads. But I have alot of stuff and I am inpressed with these canted valve small blocks You can build a 5.0 with 351c heads it would be a boss 302, new stuff from edelbrock to do that, though about that and keep it under 305 ci for D class engine but there are no headers for that would have some made


With some careful measuring, machining,oiling mods, studs, and maybe some block filler, it
can handle about 600 reliable hp. It won't be a happy street motor, but it'll scream.

[Caveman]

Ballpark, how much would it cost to get 600hp from a Cleveland, no spray?

Conversely..... how much for a 302/347/or Windsor combo to get 600hp?

I'm thinkin' the 5.0 block wins on cost... anyone?

[Shawn Anderson]

Good idea's, 351c is apealing because of the parts I have. A 302 would have alot of advantages in that its smaller, lighter, cheaper, would not need a hood scoop, parts are avalable everyware, could run production, smaller displacement (D 260-305) to bad the blocks are so week, I do have some parts already. Here is what I already have for the car and would like to use what I can but also want to go fast. Moser 31 spline 9inch with rebuild ford posi 4:33 gears (way to much for maxton) global west lower rear arms, del-a-alum front end bushings, qa1 front struts, bogart drag wheels, c-6 trans with 3500rpm converter, plastic fuel cell, summit sport seats, MSD digital 6 ignition, headman hustler 351c headers, mighty demon 825 carb, nitrous express 200hp plate set up, summit electric pump -6 lines no return fuel system. Like to use what I can but would rather make the car fast than use something because I have it.

[AdioSS]

bogart drag wheels, c-6 trans with 3500rpm converter,
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that you have to run steel wheels, but maybe that was just at Bonneville?

And you definitely want a MUCH tighter torque converter than that unless it locks up.

It sounds like you've got a lot of stuff that was designed for drag racing.

Oh yeah, have you seen the cover of the newest Hot Rod? It made me think of this thread.