Ground rules for 5k Builds

[SuperBuickGuy]

It seems there's lots of questions regarding the "rules" of this section. Perhaps here might be a good place and post those questions/rules. What follows is my ideas of what those rules should look like:

5k is for the complete build. It's also a mythical number since everyone here has skills that would cost a fortune if you had to have a professional accomplish what you do.

If you start with an expensive "free/gift" car - it doesn't really matter since the idea is what you can do with what you have rather than what you had someone else built. Thus putting 5k into a Ferrari would be an oil change, interesting, yet not terribly impressive. Or, if you start with a car built by Rad Rides, again, nice car - but 5k might cover the trailer to haul the car in. OTH, if you resurrect a 65 GTO and spend 5k in welding wire, or build a 30s era race car with a pile of plywood and an old straight 6 (where is that guy?) - we'll all be quite impressed.

Prizes - there are none. :grin:

*All rules subject to change by the management; and there is some hope that the management will provide weedkiller as a prize.

[jays67]

is the weedkiller to pour under some of my other projects lol

[milner351]

I could use some weed killer - especially the stuff that kills all poison ivy, oak, creeping grape vines, and other wild nastiness - but will not harm the pretty stuff the wife likes to look at.

The ranger is scheduled to make a club drag event September 8 I believe - so - street exhaust is off the priority list.

Dump tubes to preserve the wiring harness and get spent gases / fire out from under the cab is all that's required.

Install drive shaft with spacer at pinion flange - measure spline fit - get longer driveshaft if required.

Make new trans cooler lines and re - install trans cooler - AFTER exhaust is routed from Hedman headers - last set of new trans cooler lines is already in the scrap pile - they were directly in the path of the new header outlet - DOH.

Put the battery and coil back in I robbed to fire up the forklift.

Put the welds on with slicks and skinnies - tire shop messed up the rears taking off the old slicks - they're paying to have the wheels "refinished" we'll see how that turns out - they better be straight - a small blemish won't bother me. The skinnies I still have to get mounted.

I'm trying to resist spending the $419 on caltracs when I know I can build my own set - and already have the rod ends - but there's no way I'll have time to build them between now and the drag night.

[Mater]

i still need to buy an engine. so far every one i have found has been no more then a core

[STINEY]

I could use some weed killer - especially the stuff that kills all poison ivy, oak, creeping grape vines, and other wild nastiness - but will not harm the pretty stuff the wife likes to look at.

Install drive shaft with spacer at pinion flange - measure spline fit - get longer driveshaft if required.

I can help with the weed killer, roundup is total weakness, but I'm afraid you might have to buy replacement wifey stuff at the same time...

Pinion flange spacer? Didn't realize these existed... might be just the thing to save me some time having a new driveshaft made!

11/16" would get me a lot more spline surface!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/dv869/DSCF0472-3.jpg

[tardis454]

My V8 S-10 will cost less than $5000 to build.
Right now I'm at $1430 right now including parts & purchase price.

[milner351]

Stiney - do you have a lathe at work or access to a good machine shop?

My friend Lou at the local trans shop handed me this piece - essentially an aluminum disc with holes drilled in it for the pinion flange bolts, and a centering pilot, obviously it requires longer bolts. It bolts between the driveshaft and pinion flange on the 8.8. I will let you know if it's enough to make a difference for me. I don't know where it came from - or where to buy one like it, there's no part number or name on the thing that I recall.

I still need to get the trans / engine straight in the frame and weld up the crossmember - best do that first.

[STINEY]

I have a small lathe at home, and a couple of friends have some serious lathes in their farm shops. You thinking I could just measure what I need and cut a spacer to do the job?

[Thumpin455]

I will probably build an engine on a budget for this, it might even be a simple 400 using mostly stock parts and a hydraulic cam. I can build a bottom end like that for less than $1k and it will live for quite some time, even under boost, as long as I stay under 850hp with the stock block.

My thinking isnt to use stuff that is already together, but to devise ways of going fast on a tight budget that almost anyone could copy or emulate even if they have to farm out some of the stuff we can do ourselves. Things like lightening the car is a good place to start, you dont need as much power to put a 2600lb car into the tens as you need for a 4500lb car, and the parts will be vastly less stressed doing it. It isnt that difficult to lay up some fenders, doors, and hood in fiberglass, particularly if you dont need a perfect fit and finish on them. A back to basics approach and either using take out engines, like a 5.0/5.3/6.0 or building an older engine that maximizes the inherent strengths of that engine type would make sense.

When I started building the 79 Formula I had a $200 car and a 400 that needed rebuilt. I traded and scrounged all the parts to build a 455 and sprung for professional head porting. That car ran 11.71@115 for a little over $4500 including the price of the tires and safety items. Nobody was around to give me a set of Edelbrock heads or forged rods, they just werent widely available cheap back then, so I made it work with stock stuff. Now it is even easier for me to go that fast with a Pontiac on a budget because there are good parts out there and they arent overly expensive.

We can all find cheap cars, even a RWD V8 that isnt 4000lbs is available everywhere. Who says it has to be cool? It just has to be fast, and sleepers are cool. Find a cheap car in decent shape, stuff a big engine in it, and have fun. If I paint the thing it wont be perfect thats for sure.

[milner351]

I have a small lathe at home, and a couple of friends have some serious lathes in their farm shops. You thinking I could just measure what I need and cut a spacer to do the job?

YES - finding the raw material maybe the hardest / most expensive part - look for a billet round bar slightly larger OD than the 8.8 pinion flange to start with - by X" thick to clean up to parallel faces at the thickness you need. Use a 8.8 pinion flange as your pattern. Make sure you confirm which set of holes your shaft yoke bolts through.... Not saying it's a 5 minute job - but - if you have talented machinist friends - this is a pretty easy part to make.

Machine both surfaces parallel.
OD trim to same - not critical - as 8.8 flange.
ID machine pilot same as 8.8 flange, ID on axle side for clearance fit over 8.8 flange - shaft side identical to 8.8 flange pilot.
Then drill the holes for the bolts to go through, and get longer bolts.

[moparmaniac07]

I can say my best is a 14.8, with plenty of wheel spin. If I want to improve (or just get my Charger moving again) I'll have to rebuild the trans, which will put me over 5k. Maybe my next project can compete, whenever I get to my next project.
Also, does it have to be a car? I was bench racing with my friends and became pretty serious about half-assed turbocharging my friends quad because he's currently the slowest out of my group of friends. I've seen some stock quads and bikes run pretty quick, and a turbocharger, even half-assed, would make it even quicker.

[SuperBuickGuy]

from my perspective my 54 Studebaker would fall way under the line. I paid $100 for it 25 years ago. Bought a Chevrolet truck - that was the profit end of a trade for 3 vehicles for my one. Bought a 75 Cadillac for $75.00. Sold all the running gear from the studebaker ($1000) and the parts cars that donated the 4x4 frame (long gone - but very profitable $2000) and the Cadillac motor (scrapped the car for $150) - which if you add it all up you come up with it's paid me $3150 .... about the only things I bought for it were the wiring harness (175), the headers (50 for the headers/25 for the flange), and the exhaust (450)... (otherwise it's only paid me $2450).

point being this can be some creative financing too... does it give the old guys who don't sell anything, ever (John) an advantage - sure - but he's running a Ford so he needs all the help he can get (sorry, fingers got typing and couldn't stop :))

[VTJUNK]

Im thinking of not using my Torino. I may be getting a '78 Tbird back I once owned and I just stumbled across a '58 Edsel Wagon from Oklahoma that's been in storage since '66. The engine is stuck, but I have a Mercury Marauder 410 and C6, and lots of 9" centers of various gear ratios. Wouldnt be real fast, but it would make a neat ride. The price is cheap for how nice it is, but enough to make it a challenge to do it under 5K.

[Stich496]

so , is this legal or a wtf flag..
lest week I hit the junkyard, and on the way loaded up steel and hit zions, and pocketed 155 bucks..
then spent
5 bucks per center cap (caprice cop car ) also fits 73-87 truck rallies 6 of these..
15 bucks for the 7" rallies (2 of these)
then hit r/c truck and was going to pick up the 3) 8" rallies.. long story short, after getting the 2 rallies at middleboro this clown comes up with a 4th 8" rallie, ever want to kill someone.. that was me..
anyways, got the 4 at 25 bucks a pop
so thats a total of 160.00
so do I add the 160 to the balance of the build or 5 bucks that it really cost me.. out of pocket..


to make you cringe, the metal was 4) 78-86 caprice 2 door , doors/ 30+ rotors and a gas drier that was a working unit that I couldn't give away..

[SuperBuickGuy]

so , is this legal or a wtf flag..
lest week I hit the junkyard, and on the way loaded up steel and hit zions, and pocketed 155 bucks..
then spent
5 bucks per center cap (caprice cop car ) also fits 73-87 truck rallies 6 of these..
15 bucks for the 7" rallies (2 of these)
then hit r/c truck and was going to pick up the 3) 8" rallies.. long story short, after getting the 2 rallies at middleboro this clown comes up with a 4th 8" rallie, ever want to kill someone.. that was me..
anyways, got the 4 at 25 bucks a pop
so thats a total of 160.00
so do I add the 160 to the balance of the build or 5 bucks that it really cost me.. out of pocket..


to make you cringe, the metal was 4) 78-86 caprice 2 door , doors/ 30+ rotors and a gas drier that was a working unit that I couldn't give away..

that's hotrodding, nothing wrong with that.

[Mater]

i think we are only allowed to remove cost if it came form the project its self not just scrap we had laying around

becuase if that's the case i already have $900 off of the lebaron form scrap and cat converters i have taken

[Stich496]

point taken..

[Thumpin455]

Hey guys, I need some input. Ok the LeMans cost me $1500, but I have gotten $2k worth of interior parts, and about another $1000 or so in mechanical stuff. Since I used those parts on another car, what would be the value of the car since I didnt sell any parts from it. I can provide a breakdown of what I have pulled for the GTO, and what it would cost new, but since its used where should the value of the parts rest?

How about we have a vote or some kind of consensus about using parts from it on another car we own?

[STINEY]

My thinking is this: You needed to buy the interior stuff to complete the rental/restoration deal you have with the cars owner (or future owner as per the plan)

So, while I don't think you can "write off" rental costs in the $5000 budget (that's the kind of shady stuff the car magazines would pull!)
I do think it fair to write down the cost of the project car by 1/2 of the cost of what the new interior stuff would have been. Especially since the interior is well documented and didn't "magically" appear when your budget was getting tight.

Now when that takes you into negative cost territory it gets a little more murky....... but as long as your negative cost isn't more than say the cost of a new crate motor or similar then I think its still fine.

We all know you aren't going to BS us BSers too bad Todd, after all, you are one of us (or we are one of you, or something like that!)

[SuperBuickGuy]

if you have the parts, it's free. Consider it this way, if you didn't buy the project you'd never use the parts and throw them away (unless you're Stiney, then you just fill another barn)....

plus

Stiney, all of your projects are less than 5k because they aren't done :)

and in that vein,

at what point is the cut-off? is it 5k to make it road-worthy? or is it 5k over the life of the vehicle? is it 5k purchase price?

Still

my 2cents says "whatever you SPEND cash money for" is the criteria.... yeah, there are wheeler/dealers here who will make us all jealous, but the truth is if anyone here got the same deal, they'd do it too.... and as this is a hobby to make the most with the least - I think seeing what people can do without artificial constraints (such as having to value the parts you've stored away for just such an occasion) misses the whole point.

[Mater]

i beleive the original goal was how fast can you make it for $5,000. it was sort of a small compition for drag week that i am no where near ready for

the van has sort of made my budget get weird

[Bob Holmes]

Nobody gets to go negative.

Value the vehicle at a fair price before you get started. Then add and subtract from there.

I'm with SBG, we're generally looking at cash transactions. Now if you just had that engine handy in the garage, and you really know that you bought it for the project, step up on the cost. If you had the engine sitting under the work bench, covered by boxes with unknown crap in it, it has a 1" layer of dust on it, and your buddy says "I had no idea that you had that...what is it" then put a value on it.

This is all for fun...you don't even get a plastic $5 trophy. Be fair and we'll call you on shit we think stinks.

[Mater]

so $0 is the lowest we can go at any given time then?

i know i will never get there just woundering i am actualy starting to get geared up on the lebaron getting parts coming in

[Bob Holmes]

No car is worth $0. It has a scrap value.

[Mater]

i was not talking about the car's value but the whole build

currently i am at $986 total value if for some reason i got $1,000 for the van after i scrap it i would be at negative $14 for the whole build would this be koasher?

[Thumpin455]

Im not trying to go negative, just seeing what kind of budget I will have to work with. I can always dig up a car I traded some bucket seats for, or only have $300 cash in it and build that. Those two are lighter than a 65 LeMans, and mostly complete cars as far as metal goes.

So an engine we have had sitting around a while doesnt have to be full cost? I can get behind that. I have the 455 I pulled from the GTO last year, but when I built it back in 94 or 95 it only cost me $1k for the shortblock. It also has 40k+ on it now. So when I get to this project in earnest, I will post pics and what I think the stuff is worth, and you guys can give it a thumbs up or down.

Like Stiney, I have a big pile of parts to choose from. I could put something together and only pay for gaskets, fluids, and things like that, it just wouldnt be that fast or reliable. All sorts of crap I have collected over the last 25 years or so, trading parts or labor for most of it, and cash outlay has always been low because I have always been poor. For Stiney and I its more like Junkyard Wars, we just have to find the stuff.

[STINEY]

For Stiney and I its more like Junkyard Wars, we just have to find the stuff.

:thumbs: :)

[Beagle]

Can I deduct the 300.00 fine from the city from my budget or is that a cost? lol.

[TheSilverBuick]

Can I deduct the 300.00 fine from the city from my budget or is that a cost? lol.

D'oh!

[Mater]

Can I deduct the 300.00 fine from the city from my budget or is that a cost? lol.

ouch


i do need you guys input on the cost of soemthing though. i am going to turbo the lebaron i will be using stock GTP injectors but no idea what to price them at as they came off of my black car i scrapped last year. one yard had them listed at $70 for a set (LOL) but i can get them on a local forum for $1 an injector

[Beagle]

ouch


i do need you guys input on the cost of soemthing though. i am going to turbo the lebaron i will be using stock GTP injectors but no idea what to price them at as they came off of my black car i scrapped last year. one yard had them listed at $70 for a set (LOL) but i can get them on a local forum for $1 an injector

ONE BILLION DOLLARS.. hell, that was easy... now move your car out of the part of the forum. Next question... Muahahahhhahaah

http://thinkingscifi.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dr-evil.jpg


:)

I'll let somebody else answer. Grin.

[Mater]

if i blew a million on a k-car i would check my self in to a psyc ward lol

[TheSilverBuick]

i do need you guys input on the cost of soemthing though. i am going to turbo the lebaron i will be using stock GTP injectors but no idea what to price them at as they came off of my black car i scrapped last year. one yard had them listed at $70 for a set (LOL) but i can get them on a local forum for $1 an injector

$8 it is. SBG I think is on the right track, you have that opportunity in front of you, and any others if they were in your shoes would jump on it. It's a matter of being resourceful. Some times you call in favors, and some times you happen to be in the right spot at the right time. It happens all the time for a lot of people and I think it's fair game.

So how much would it cost for you to send me $16 worth of those $1 injectors? :grin:

[STINEY]

If this turns into a group buy thing, consider me in for 8 of them!

[Beagle]

I'm in for 16 if they are high impedance... they're 36's?

[Mater]

LOL the guy only had 6 of them haha

but yes factory GTP injectors are 36.5# @ 43.5psi

[MoparBilly]

I love looking at all the stuff guys do to keep costs down, and I'm all for using up my leftover parts stash, but somewhere along the line, it's sad to admit I lost my taste for the kind of machine I would end up with for 5K.

Last year, in a multicar trade with 2 of my brothers, I ended up with the 67 Belvedere that one of them had just finished Drag Week 2011 with. As a point of reference I gave up 4K in boot, and a clean, painted, project 70 Barracuda. I then dumped 3150 dollars in parts alone into it before my daughter drove it on Drag Week 2012. I still have improvement plans tha will keep me wrenching and spending on it right up until Drag Week 2013.

Where did I go wrong???

[SuperBuickGuy]

I love looking at all the stuff guys do to keep costs down, and I'm all for using up my leftover parts stash, but somewhere along the line, it's sad to admit I lost my taste for the kind of machine I would end up with for 5K.

Last year, in a multicar trade with 2 of my brothers, I ended up with the 67 Belvedere that one of them had just finished Drag Week 2011 with. As a point of reference I gave up 4K in boot, and a clean, painted, project 70 Barracuda. I then dumped 3150 dollars in parts alone into it before my daughter drove it on Drag Week 2012. I still have improvement plans tha will keep me wrenching and spending on it right up until Drag Week 2013.

Where did I go wrong???

Ummm, besides starting with a Mopar? Mopars may be many good things, but budget friendly isn't one of them.

[Russell]

So how is the competiton stacking up? I have around 3k in my Capri it went 143 mph :)

[Beagle]

I hit 25 mph for 1100.00 in Monica's car! I guess a go-kart would have been cheaper.

[milner351]

I've lost track on the falcon - but I know the $999 AC kit pushed me over the $5k barrier, that and $425 for two rear tires!
I was planning on using swap meet wheels - but when they leaked air and even a second application of JB weld wouldn't seal them, I broke down and bought a pair of summit legend 5s at $116 each, to match the other swap meet wheels I paid abt $30 each for.

After surviving drag week, I have to say that the AC kit was a good investment, as a lifelong midwesterner - I don't do heat and humitidy well.... and AC will allow the car to be more practical as a fun daily driver to and from work, picking up Lee from daycare, etc.

[SuperBuickGuy]

I've lost track on the falcon - but I know the $999 AC kit pushed me over the $5k barrier, that and $425 for two rear tires!
I was planning on using swap meet wheels - but when they leaked air and even a second application of JB weld wouldn't seal them, I broke down and bought a pair of summit legend 5s at $116 each, to match the other swap meet wheels I paid abt $30 each for.

After surviving drag week, I have to say that the AC kit was a good investment, as a lifelong midwesterner - I don't do heat and humitidy well.... and AC will allow the car to be more practical as a fun daily driver to and from work, picking up Lee from daycare, etc.

How long do you expect Lee to be in daycare? :)

[milner351]

He's not even 3 years old yet SBG - not quite ready for Harvard Law.

[SuperBuickGuy]

He's not even 3 years old yet SBG - not quite ready for Harvard Law.


While I understand that (how do I say this delicately?) sometimes projects take far longer than originally envisioned

[milner351]

haven't had the car a year yet.... I don't think I'm doing too bad for a working Dad with a wife that travels a lot.

[Beagle]

While I understand that (how do I say this delicately?) sometimes projects take far longer than originally envisioned

shit, I haven't even begun to take Monica's car apart yet. How's the Fiat? :stirpot:

[SuperBuickGuy]

haven't had the car a year yet.... I don't think I'm doing too bad for a working Dad with a wife that travels a lot.

oh don't get me wrong, I think you're flying on your project; especially given the amount of time available to do such fun things.... still, my guess, you'll run it next year on drag week and finally be done with it just in time for his first day of school in kindergarten.

[SuperBuickGuy]

shit, I haven't even begun to take Monica's car apart yet. How's the Fiat? :stirpot:

just as fast as the Buick, your point?
That said, last I checked, it was just as fast as every project you've started on here :grin:

[Mater]

So how is the competiton stacking up? I have around 3k in my Capri it went 143 mph :)

i have less then 700 in the lebaron and it is no where near even close

on the other hand i have 1800 (what i paid for the thing) in the grand prix and it goes low 14's lol

ie it's stock

[Bob Holmes]

In my opinion, I have the fastest pro-jackstand Mustang on here. :grin:

[Beagle]

just as fast as the Buick, your point?
That said, last I checked, it was just as fast as every project you've started on here :grin:

Monica's moves under it's own power! I have gotten around to immobilizing it yet. :P

[SuperBuickGuy]

Monica's moves under it's own power! I have gotten around to immobilizing it yet. :P

It's just a matter of time my friend.

[STINEY]

Monica's moves under it's owners' power! I have gotten around to immobilizing it yet. :P

There SBG fixed it for ya!


No offense Beags, my fox hasn't moved under its own power since I've had it, and that has been a few years now.

[Thumpin455]

I love looking at all the stuff guys do to keep costs down, and I'm all for using up my leftover parts stash, but somewhere along the line, it's sad to admit I lost my taste for the kind of machine I would end up with for 5K.

Last year, in a multicar trade with 2 of my brothers, I ended up with the 67 Belvedere that one of them had just finished Drag Week 2011 with. As a point of reference I gave up 4K in boot, and a clean, painted, project 70 Barracuda. I then dumped 3150 dollars in parts alone into it before my daughter drove it on Drag Week 2012. I still have improvement plans tha will keep me wrenching and spending on it right up until Drag Week 2013.

Where did I go wrong???

Going back a couple days... Bill I think you just started out with too nice of a car that someone wanted more money for. There is a reason I am not using some others I have, mainly I have too much in them already. Its not the kind of project you start with a $4000 car, its the kind you start with a $500 or less car. I have traded a pair of seats that I got free for a car that would work great for this, its a 71 Ventura, all manual and originally had a 6 in it. Its a 9" rear from being a drag car with an engine/trans I have laying around. I could stuff a $4000 650hp engine in it and run bottom tens real easy, and that would be the only thing I have to buy for it. Its fun to build a car on a budget when you have next to nothing in the car.

Anyway, the LeMans will be a decent looking car, have quite a bit of power, and it should drive quite well once its all done. Its in the shop for the winter, up on dollies, about to pull it apart and start fixing rust and taking it to bare metal. The engine is on a cart waiting to go in, but I think I will blast the frame and paint it first. I have gotten spoiled working on clean stuff lately, so this one will get a frame off too. For me that isnt a big deal, its just cleaning and painting with cheap tractor enamel.

I went 11.71@115 for around $4500 in an over geared 3800lb car, it ran out of steam at the 1000' mark. The LeMans should be quite a bit closer to 3000lbs and geared right for the powerband, and running a very similar engine. The only problem it might have is getting it to hook.

[Beagle]

There SBG fixed it for ya!


No offense Beags, my fox hasn't moved under its own power since I've had it, and that has been a few years now.

hers runs, and my office looks like the Summit warehouse with all the 351 junk for it. I won't take it apart until I make the black one run. I had big plans for the last couple of weeks but life gets in the way. I took my dad down to Houston last week, lost an Aunt very unexpectedly, services tomorrow. I have a week off at the end of October though, so maybe... just maybe. :)