Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

[cjforumadmin]

http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Engine-Masters-Challenge-2010-Coming-Next-Week-BangShifters-Thrashing-on-an-Entry.html

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

is this the engine D/G just fried pistons in.. hope not, we might not see eye to eye, but thats sucks this close to a test/comp.

[horsewidower]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

This is the one we were alluding to.

He and I are working on the same team. The burn down had nothing to do with the tune. It had more to do with pistons that have several hundred dyno pulls. There was no evidence of detonation on pistons, plugs or chambers. The cracks were located in the middle of the intake valve cutouts on the pistons.

Scott, Scott and I are the EFI side of the effort. Danny, Gene and a cast of early hemi guys are working the mechanical side. Look up Gene Adams on Google, he's simply the guru on early hemi engines. Danny thinks out of the box and is a great Capt. of the team.

We have had a blast this last year trying to make this work, we had a howitzer for the gun fight, now we'll need to cut them a 1,000 times with the pen knife.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

is this the engine D/G just fried pistons in.. hope not, we might not see eye to eye, but thats sucks this close to a test/comp.

It's actually an interesting story... after the event next week we'll post pics (I got a decent video) of what we were testing, and what was happening.

The age-old battle among EFI tuners is "where to place the injectors for best power" - well, at least on this engine, best power was with the injectors way way up in the intake tract. The problem with that is, the wall-wetting effect is HUGE at lower RPMs, or anywhere before the engine gets on the cam profile.

We were putting up a cloud of standoff (fuel reversion) large enough to run a fleet of hotrods, and could not get the engine to swallow it early enough. The result is a huge lean spot on tip-in that nobody can "tune" around. Proof of that is, placing the injectors down low in a more OEM-like position resulted in easy tuning, total control of AFRs - and less power.

Hopefully the lower power was a result of 2 cylinders going away. We're deciding now where we want to put the injectors on the new engine, because the last one survived over 200 dyno pulls with out-of-control AFRs but it made *huge* power. We're talking well over 600hp and 550 ft-lbs between 2500-6500rpms in a little 387" motor, on crappy California pump gas. About 1.65 hp/ci. That's a lot.


Anyways, the 304" combo was the original hopeful. The Engine team believes there are some advantages for the smaller motor. In testing, it wasn't as strong as the 387" but they believe they can improve it with head porting changes. The EFI team simply has to take what they're given, and find the sweet spot with a pile of variables: air:fuel ratio and ignition timing at all RPMs, injection event phasing, individual cylinder spark timing, and individual cylinder fuel quantity. There's a lot to "find" in 20 minutes but we have a good idea based on the last engine's performance. Knowing this extraordinarily funky intake helps a lot too. The thing is weird but awesome.


To say these guys are into details, is putting it mildly. You guys will love our ignition setup too, it cost millions of dollars to develop. No kidding.

-Scott

[milner351]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

Godspeed Gentleman!

Wish I could drive down for the event -- not far away.

This darn job keeps getting in the way of my hobbies. :

[realsteelfreak]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

Good luck guys

[Monster]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

Kick some butt guys !!

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

would 8 down low and 8 up high with a rpm switching give the best of both world,, 5150

[dieselgeek]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

would 8 down low and 8 up high with a rpm switching give the best of both world,, 5150

Exactly!! but the rules don't allow staged injection. I wouldn't do it with an RPM switch, you actually want to "phase" the second injectors slowly. I was all over that because I have spare injector drivers on the MS3x for it too. No dice. Rules suck.

[mike343sharpstick]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

is this the engine D/G just fried pistons in.. hope not, we might not see eye to eye, but thats sucks this close to a test/comp.

It's actually an interesting story... after the event next week we'll post pics (I got a decent video) of what we were testing, and what was happening.

The age-old battle among EFI tuners is "where to place the injectors for best power" - well, at least on this engine, best power was with the injectors way way up in the intake tract. The problem with that is, the wall-wetting effect is HUGE at lower RPMs, or anywhere before the engine gets on the cam profile.

We were putting up a cloud of standoff (fuel reversion) large enough to run a fleet of hotrods, and could not get the engine to swallow it early enough. The result is a huge lean spot on tip-in that nobody can "tune" around. Proof of that is, placing the injectors down low in a more OEM-like position resulted in easy tuning, total control of AFRs - and less power.

Hopefully the lower power was a result of 2 cylinders going away. We're deciding now where we want to put the injectors on the new engine, because the last one survived over 200 dyno pulls with out-of-control AFRs but it made *huge* power. We're talking well over 600hp and 550 ft-lbs between 2500-6500rpms in a little 387" motor, on crappy California pump gas. About 1.65 hp/ci. That's a lot.


Anyways, the 304" combo was the original hopeful. The Engine team believes there are some advantages for the smaller motor. In testing, it wasn't as strong as the 387" but they believe they can improve it with head porting changes. The EFI team simply has to take what they're given, and find the sweet spot with a pile of variables: air:fuel ratio and ignition timing at all RPMs, injection event phasing, individual cylinder spark timing, and individual cylinder fuel quantity. There's a lot to "find" in 20 minutes but we have a good idea based on the last engine's performance. Knowing this extraordinarily funky intake helps a lot too. The thing is weird but awesome.


To say these guys are into details, is putting it mildly. You guys will love our ignition setup too, it cost millions of dollars to develop. No kidding.

-Scott

That is very interesting. Years ago World Superbike tuners were using two injectors per cylinder. One injector near the valve for low rpm use, and another above the intake horn for high RPM WOT use only.
Interesting to see that information confirmed here.
PHR is becoming more interesting that Hot Rod these days.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

Godspeed Gentleman!

Wish I could drive down for the event -- not far away.

This darn job keeps getting in the way of my hobbies. :

screw work!! come hang out with us John! you'd be a welcome guest and this is reportedly a good spectator event. BangShiftChad used to be the announcer until the geriatrics kicked him out for being too exciting. :D

[nosnerd]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry



good luck scott,,,,lotsa luck and respect on my behalf.

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

would 8 down low and 8 up high with a rpm switching give the best of both world,, 5150

Exactly!! but the rules don't allow staged injection. I wouldn't do it with an RPM switch, you actually want to "phase" the second injectors slowly. I was all over that because I have spare injector drivers on the MS3x for it too. No dice. Rules suck.

open plem?
don't stage them. batch them 8 one batch low , 8 high 2nd batch

[Cyclone03.1]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

D/G, Back in the early 2000 Ducati added 2nd and sometimes 3rd injectors to their SuperBikes.
The extra injector was added above the throttle blade and just about even with the velocity stack opening.
They called them "shower" injectors , I don't know at what RPM they came on but it wasn't below about 7000rpm(11500 max) so with only about 5 days to go how about placing the lower inj. where they make the best low end,then add 8 more injectors above those for the top? 16 injectors on 300c.i. would raise some eyebrows!


Dang I should read all the posts before I post!

[Cyclone03.1]

Re: Engine Masters Challenge 2010 Coming Next Week: BangShifters Thrashing on an Entry

[would 8 down low and 8 up high with a rpm switching give the best of both world,, 5150


Exactly!! but the rules don't allow staged injection. I wouldn't do it with an RPM switch, you actually want to "phase" the second injectors slowly. I was all over that because I have spare injector drivers on the MS3x for it too. No dice. Rules suck.
[/quote]
open plem?
don't stage them. batch them 8 one batch low , 8 high 2nd batch
[/quote]

Nice!
Just run the uppers at about 1% all the time,then pull back on the lowers and push up the uppers. (lots of up there).
They cant be staged if you show they are all on at the same time.!