Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

[cjforumadmin]

http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Diesel-Swaps-Ain-t-Cheap-City-to-Spend-52K-Per-Vehicle.html

[BOOOGHAR]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

they must be buying new crate engines for the swap and I bet the shop(s) are just licking thier chops at doing that conversion

my snap on guy just had that conversion done in his truck and I know for a fact it was about 1/10th the price of that but he bought a used engine from a wrecked bus for his truck

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

I'm guessing that is a pretty fair price. School bus engines, and snap on trucks, can make due with a relatively cheap 4BT or ISB 6 banger, both of which have low costs due to the massive number of engines that have been manufactured already (economy of scale).

The bus engines, however, are a different story - those are often MUCH larger displacement.

The world of big diesel engines is strange, and changes every year. For example,. a few years back there was a Cummins engine that was a ridiculous unreliable piece of junk in the 400-500hp range, and a comparable Caterpillar that was far more reliable (but more expensive). Yet, if you stepped down one notch in power, the Cummins was FAR more reliable and a better engine than it's competitors.

Navistar has the same issue - their Ford engines are without a doubt the most ridiculously unreliable pieces of junk ever put forth in diesel vehicles, and yes that includes the GM diesels in the 80s (whose only actual, major problems were lack of filtration/separation systems that could handle the terrible fuel quality back then). However, if you look at the DT466 inline from Navistar, it is one of the most legendary, power-capable and long lasting diesel engines ever made!

All of the manufacturers have their bad eggs, and good eggs. What sucks is, if you get a bad egg, the cost for diesel repair will be *huge* compared to gasser engines.

[Toecutter]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Follow the money trail. Bet you the shop doing the swap is owned by or belongs to a family member of the city council. It's called "creative spend"....LOL! In our town, there was a lady that catered all of the city events. She was the only one allowed to do so. Turned out later that she was the sister of the mayor. Coincidence? I think not! At my sons graduation, we were not allowed to bring in balloons, flowers, nothing. Everything had to be purchased from vendors set up inside the stadium. Later we found out that the company selling the ballons and stuff was owned by the Superintendants sister. Coincidence? I think not!

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Follow the money trail. Bet you the shop doing the swap is owned by or belongs to a family member of the city council. It's called "creative spend"....LOL! In our town, there was a lady that catered all of the city events. She was the only one allowed to do so. Turned out later that she was the sister of the mayor. Coincidence? I think not! At my sons graduation, we were not allowed to bring in balloons, flowers, nothing. Everything had to be purchased from vendors set up inside the stadium. Later we found out that the company selling the ballons and stuff was owned by the Superintendants sister. Coincidence? I think not!

well, the article says that their local Cummins shop is doing the work. Some of those shops are owned by Cummins, but most are Franchises. So what you are saying might be true (owned by a friend) but... since that's the only place you can get a Cummins swap done and have factory warranty (which they probably want this time around), I'm guessing they really didn't have much choice. The article says they compared with other cities who used Cummins engines in similar buses, and found that the Detroits were unreliable for other cities while the Cummins engines were far less trouble.

Personally I doubt it is any scam, and the price sounds reasonable. $50K is a lot less than my company pays for annual maintenance/overhaul/etc. on each one of our generators, which are powered by 8.3 liter Cummins engines. Diesels are expensive!

[plowboy]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

I work in the ag. equipment industry and thinking that they are probably looking at something in the 11L range, $52K for the swap doesn't surprise me at all.

The engine will retail for around $25K, then they have to R&R the installation, looking at all new accessories, plus....the old Detroit cooling package won't cut it for a new emissions compliant engine- all that will have to be new and they still need to hunt up whatever new engine mounts have to be fabbed for the job.

Adds up quick!!!!!!!

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

and what about transmissions? will the new motors bolt up to whatever's in there now? those big auto trannies are NOT cheap either

[38P]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Navistar has the same issue - their Ford engines are without a doubt the most ridiculously unreliable pieces of junk ever put forth in diesel vehicles, and yes that includes the GM diesels in the 80s (whose only actual, major problems were lack of filtration/separation systems that could handle the terrible fuel quality back then).

This is simply not true. The 6.9, 7.3 and 7.3 PowerStroke engines were quite reliable -- vastly much more so than the Oldsmobile/GM 5.7 diesel. Ford and Navistar did litigate certain problems in the 6.0 PowerStroke, but these issues were completely solved in the 6.4 PowerStroke.

Ford's new 2011 "Scorpion" 6.7 PowerStroke is an in-house design that's going to be more than competitive with anything available in an American light truck at any price.

I would not hesitiate to recommend purchase of a 6.9, 7.3, 7.3 PowerStroke or 6.4 PowerStroke-powered vehicle.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

This is simply not true. The 6.9, 7.3 and 7.3 PowerStroke engines were quite reliable -- vastly much more so than the Oldsmobile/GM 5.7 diesel. Ford and Navistar did litigate certain problems in the 6.0 PowerStroke, but these issues were completely solved in the 6.4 PowerStroke.

Sure it's not true if you're so "Pro Ford" that you couldn't care what happens to the consumers. Your understatement of the 6.0 and 6.4 problems, and Ford (and Navistar's) massive efforts to wash their hands of them, is only overshadowed by your downright ridiculous claims that a clean sheet diesel, designed under pressure by a company riding the edge of bankruptcy, is a "surefire hit" - bottom line? get real dude.

Ford's new 2011 "Scorpion" 6.7 PowerStroke is an in-house design that's going to be more than competitive with anything available in an American light truck at any price.

Reminds me of how awesome the 6.0 and 6.4 diesels were going to be, now renown for nothing but their unreliability.

[kenworth jon]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

For the 6.0 liter diesel all you have to do is a egr delete and head studs and will be just as good as your little 6bt cummins.Also dont forget ford didnt take any TARP money like mother mopar did.Oh by the way mother mopar has a problem paying the money back so you cant pick on ford for that DUDE.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

For the 6.0 liter diesel all you have to do is a egr delete and head studs and will be just as good as your little 6bt cummins.Also dont forget ford didnt take any TARP money like mother mopar did.Oh by the way mother mopar has a problem paying the money back so you cant pick on ford for that DUDE.

oh sweet, yeah you're right, all I gotta do is what equates to a 30+ hour book job - as a "home mechanic" - so I can turn my $50,000 Ford Diesel into an engine that MIGHT last me to 60,000 miles. Hell, that's no biggie at all, I mean, it's so easy to pull the turbo, emissions plumbing, intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, and all that fuel system plumbing - so I can get to the cylinder heads that I have to pull - just to make the engine actually run.

Take a look at the Powerstroke forums. They have dedicated subforums for "6.0 and 6.4 problems" where these poor bastards that are stuck making payments on these wonderful engines, are having to figure out themselves how to make the engine run without misfire, or in permanent "limp" mode. Nevermind the other major problems you are skipping, like the fact that a set of $270 apiece injectors are likely to need replaced more often than the sparkplugs in a modmotor...

And I don't see where i was "Pro Cummins" but it's pretty entertaining when guys like you get in here and pretend that there really wasn't any major problems with 6.0 diesels, nevermind the fact that every single 03 ever made, needed an engine replacement. Yeah, you're probably right, I'm just exaggerating, right? :

[kenworth jon]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Dont get upset and cry about it.The 6.0 issue is not your problem and if i want to spend 30 plus hours fixing the motor i will.Its called sweat equity but owning the cummins motor is not worth owning the truck that goes with it.Ido not have a problem with cummins b series i own 3 of them and they can have there issues.But the f series is much more of a truck than the dodge and the taxpayers dont own ford.I bet dodge will die before ford will so we can agree to disagree.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Dont get upset and cry about it.The 6.0 issue is not your problem and if i want to spend 30 plus hours fixing the motor i will.Its called sweat equity but owning the cummins motor is not worth owning the truck that goes with it.Ido not have a problem with cummins b series i own 3 of them and they can have there issues.But the f series is much more of a truck than the dodge and the taxpayers dont own ford.I bet dodge will die before ford will so we can agree to disagree.

what part of that post had any relevance to this entire thread? I could care less what you think of Dodge. Had nothing to do with this thread. Take it up with BJ McKay and Lee Iacocca for all I care.

[kenworth jon]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

Well I think you were the one who started complaining about the 6.0 diesel. All i was doing was standing up for the blue oval.You dieselgeek were the one who started this. By the way i don't think B.J. or lee really care also.So have a nice evening and good bye for know

[38P]

Re: Diesel Swaps Ain't Cheap: City to Spend $52K Per Vehicle

This is simply not true. The 6.9, 7.3 and 7.3 PowerStroke engines were quite reliable -- vastly much more so than the Oldsmobile/GM 5.7 diesel. Ford and Navistar did litigate certain problems in the 6.0 PowerStroke, but these issues were completely solved in the 6.4 PowerStroke.

Sure it's not true if you're so "Pro Ford" that you couldn't care what happens to the consumers.

That would be me, a PowerStroke Diesel owner with light diesel ownership dating back to the 1980s. So I guess you're saying I don't care what happens to myself.

. . . . Ford (and Navistar's) massive efforts to wash their hands of them

All I'm aware of Ford doing is (a) analyzing the problems and (b) working diligently to correct them. Where's the proof that anyone is engaged in a cover-up or "hand washing?"

. . . is only overshadowed by your downright ridiculous claims that a clean sheet diesel, designed under pressure by a company riding the edge of bankruptcy, is a "surefire hit" - bottom line? get real dude.

Ford, of course, has extensive light diesel experience in Europe, where 30 percent of passenger vehicles are turbo-diesel. Ford has around 10% of the light vehicle market across the 19 major European markets. Thus, Ford already builds hundreds of thousands of turbo-diesels in-house each year.

Moreover, Ford has almost thirty years of warranty data on the International/Navistar engines. So the implication that Ford cannot make the 6.7 Scorpion into a world class 'plant is completely unsupported.

Ford has extensively tested the Scorpion during its development:

[Ford says it has put the 6.7-liter engine through a vigorous testing scheme to identify any potential weaknesses or quality concerns before the first units wind up in the hands of customers.

A 250,000 mile durability test looks for structural fatigue points. It simulates the driving habits of 95th percentile Super Duty customers who pull the heaviest loads. The engines are placed in a dyno cell where they spend nearly 6 hours running continuously at peak torque and then 3.5 hours at peak grade power to prove out connecting rod and rotating mass strength. The cycle repeats for 1,200 hours, or 50 days of running.

A thermal fatigue test is used to prove out the engine assembly process by stressing the head gasket, joints, radiator connections and other seals. For this test cycle, the engine is idled and then throttled up to peak power for about 14 minutes. That's enough time for the engine to get red hot. It's then shut off and 16-degrees below zero coolant is pumped in and allowed to soak for a few moments before the engine is fired back up to rated power. The shock loop is 150 hours long, or 75 cycles.

A structural test is run to make sure the engine's build tolerances and parts acceptance criteria are set properly, so there are no surprises during production. Engines are built using actual parts with purposely incorporated defects that simulate the worst quality issues Ford has seen in production, such as low head bolt torque or inclusions in the piston casting bowl. It's a new test that the Scorpion team determined was necessary if the engine was going to be built in-house.

Finally, there's a real-world wear test that, like the durability test, simulates the operating conditions and applications of Ford's 95th percentile customer. Fully assembled Super Duty engineering test mules are run over 250,000 miles of the most grueling roads in the U.S. with the toughest grades in temperatures that vary from -40 to 130 degrees. It's the equivalent of 10 years of services in six months. Two-hundred test points are measured at peak rated power and torque over every speed range to make sure the engine's entire real world operating spectrum is tested.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08...el-engine.html

You also omit that Navistar sells a version of the 6.4 as the MaxxForce 7. The MaxxForce 7 is the only Class 6/7 truck engine with a Compacted Graphite Iron block. http://maxxforce.com/Application/on-...ne/MaxxForce_7 (the Scorpion will also have a CG Iron block)

The MaxxForce 7 has a rated B50 engine life of 350,000 Miles (603,504 km) . B50 ratings show the expected life before required overhaul or replacement of engines and other rotating equipment. They are typically described in terms of "miles of operation" in the trucking community.

B50 is the estimate of when 50% of the engines of a certain type will require major repair (repairs requiring dropping of the oil pan or removal of cylinder heads -- it does not refer to rotating components attached to the engine) and is often referred to as "average life to overhaul." These values are indicators of the robustness of a design.